Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are Really Leaving the Church

A hard, honest look at why people are really leaving the church.

leaving the church

Want to know why people are really leaving the church? Being on the other side of the Exodus stinks, don’t it?

I see the panic on your face, Church.

I know the internal terror as you see the statistics and hear the stories and scan the exit polls.

I see you desperately scrambling to do damage control for the fence-sitters, and manufacture passion from the shrinking faithful, and I want to help you.

You may think you know why people are leaving you, but I’m not sure you do.

You think it’s because “the culture” is so lost, so perverse, so beyond help that they are all walking away.

You believe that they’ve turned a deaf ear to the voice of God; chasing money, and sex, and material things.

You think that the gays and the Muslims and the Atheists and the pop stars have so screwed up the morality of the world that everyone is abandoning faith in droves.

But those aren’t the reasons people are leaving the church.

They aren’t the problem, Church.

You are the problem.

Let me elaborate in five ways …

1. Your Sunday productions have worn thin.

The stage, and the lights, and the bands, and the video screens, have all just become white noise to those really seeking to encounter God. They’re ear and eye candy for an hour, but they have so little relevance in people’s daily lives that more and more of them are taking a pass.

Yeah, the songs are cool and the show is great, but ultimately Sunday morning isn’t really making a difference on Tuesday afternoon or Thursday evening, when people are wrestling with the awkward, messy, painful stuff in the trenches of life; the places where rock shows don’t help.

We can be entertained anywhere. Until you can give us something more than a Christian-themed performance piece—something that allows us space and breath and conversation and relationship—many of us are going to sleep in and stay away.

Recommended On ChurchPlants:  Spiritual Rhythms for the Long Haul

2. You speak in a foreign tongue.

Church, you talk and talk and talk, but you do so using a dead language. You’re holding onto dusty words that have no resonance in people’s ears, not realizing that just saying those words louder isn’t the answer. All the religious buzzwords that used to work 20 years ago no longer do.

This spiritualized insider-language may give you some comfort in an outside world that is changing, but that stuff’s just lazy religious shorthand, and it keeps regular people at a distance. They need you to speak in a language that they can understand. There’s a message there worth sharing, but it’s hard to hear above your verbal pyrotechnics.

People don’t need to be dazzled with big, churchy words and about eschatological frameworks and theological systems. Talk to them plainly about love, and joy, and forgiveness, and death, and peace, and God, and they’ll be all ears. Keep up the church-speak, and you’ll be talking to an empty room soon.

3. Your vision can’t see past your building.

The coffee bar, the cushy couches, the high-tech lights, the funky Children’s wing and the uber-cool Teen Center are all top-notch … and costly. In fact, most of your time, money and energy seems to be about luring people to where you are instead of reaching people where they already are.

Rather than simply stepping out into the neighborhoods around you and partnering with the amazing things already happening, and the beautiful stuff God is already doing, you seem content to franchise out your particular brand of Jesus-stuff, and wait for the sinful world to beat down your door.

Your greatest mission field is just a few miles, (or a few feet) off your campus and you don’t even realize it. You wanna reach the people you’re missing?

Recommended On ChurchPlants:  Church Planting Self-Reflection: 10 Must-Ask Questions

Leave the building.

4. You choose lousy battles.

We know you like to fight, Church. That’s obvious.

When you want to, you can go to war with the best of them. The problem is, your battles are too darn small. Fast food protests, hobby store outrage and duck-calling Reality TV show campaigns may manufacture some urgency and Twitter activity on the inside for the already-convinced, but they’re paper tigers to people out here with bloody boots on the ground.

Every day we see a world suffocated by poverty, and racism, and violence, and bigotry, and hunger; and in the face of that stuff, you get awfully, frighteningly quiet. We wish you were as courageous in those fights, because then we’d feel like coming alongside you; then we’d feel like going to war with you.

Church, we need you to stop being warmongers with the trivial and pacifists in the face of the terrible.

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John Pavlovitz
John Pavlovitz is a pastor/blogger from Wake Forest, North Carolina. An 18-year veteran of local church ministry, he currently writes a blog called Stuff That Needs To Be Said, and in January is launching an online Christian community called The Table.
  • Peter

    Thank you John for a voice too little heard 🙂

    • DougNTexas

      One of the biggest things is the Republication of the Church. Money is now King. Republicans and Church leaders are now joined at the hip. The Church now supports any war any where. Republicans start wars to they can profit off of them. But Jesus was a peace maker. But the current Church does a poor job of showing that side of Jesus Christ. People are out of work, sick and dying, and in dreadful need and all they get from the Church is the Republican mantra of “every man needs to pull up his own boots”. It is shameful. More and more Church members and even Pastors are now members of the local Mason Grand Lodge cause it opens doors to inside prosperity. Forget trusting in God. Trusting in being a Mason is the real way to get ahead in life they seem to think. But money will only get you so far in this life. Money will get you no where in the next life. No matter how much you put in the offering plate, you will still have to stand in line and give a account of your life.The Church has taken its eye off the real prize. That is truly leading people to a real personal life change in Christ. Building bigger building is not the reason for the Church. Jesus and his death on the cross for Our sins and his resurrection out of the grave and soon return from heaven is the real reason for the season. That is what the Church needs to be preaching. “What will wash away my sins, nothing BUT the blood of Jesus. What will make me whole again, nothing BUT the blood of Jesus.” Church that is still YOUR message. Anything else is just tickling your ears.

      • CeeBee1953

        Why are you making this about politics? This article has nothing to do with politics.

        • DougNTexas

          Because politics is very very present in today’s Church. I have heard it myself right from the pulpit. Personally I think there is no place for politics from the pulpit, but that does NOT change the facts. Pastors are the ones who brought politics to the front 30 years ago. Now young people are leaving in droves.

        • bchristian85

          That’s because it has everything to do with politics. The evangelical church in America has become an arm of the Republican Party. If that’s not the case, why is the “Christian” position on issues always the Republican position, even when it contradicts the teachings of Christ?

  • Elaine

    My word John, you have made my day! I love your comment about the other side of Exodus! I actually don’t and haven’t attended or joined a church for I don’t know how long, but I am a dedicated child of God. Love your stuff, please don’t stop, God bless

  • Michelle

    It is so good to know I am not alone in these thoughts. I left the church- I couldn’t stand it anymore. It broke my heart to see the senseless of its obsessions – advertising, light shows, sound systems. It was so cold. I would love to find a body of believers to fellowship with, but … I’m not terribly optimistic.

    • Christmas Joy

      I will pray that the Holy spirit will guide you into the direction that you need to go. You should be extremely optimistic about having the ability to serve the Lord and worship Him. There are brothers and sisters out there for you to gather with.

  • jsexton9

    The Catholic Church’s “Come Home” campaign will have no lasting effect, even if it has a temporary one, unless those in control pay heed to what we read above. And the sad truth is that, in most cases, they will simply write off all positive suggestions as being “anti-Church” and just go on with the same old same old. People may come back. But it will only be a matter of time before many, if not most, of them will walk out again, mumbling something to the effect of “Now I remember why I left”.

  • Pequeñoquiji

    Thank you for your article. As you mentioned, the insiders will turn the deaf ear and go on about their “good christian” business. Many years ago, Johnny Paycheck recorded “The Outlaw’s Prayer” and I have had the opportunity to share it with some of those aforementioned folks. Some, have cried, some laughed and others just looked off in the distance. It is so sad that we have taken Christ out of Christianity. I am amazed at how we look, look and look for the “right” church home … and yet … Jesus waits for us “EVERYWHERE”.

  • SoOverFormalizedReligion

    I left the Catholic church before my confirmation, because of how little women matter in their worldview. I have ovaries, and therefore I am not worthy of a position of leadership? I’m out. I come from a big Irish Catholic family–my mother has 7 brothers and sisters–and of the 19 children and 7 couples, only one couple is still Catholic. Everyone else has split for another church or for private beliefs. The church is just becoming irrelevant.

  • Todd S. Jenkins

    Man, each of these points resonates deeply with me. I’ve been to too many churches who were more interested in appearances than the words of Christ. We attended one for several years whose pastor turned out to be a demagogue. He demanded that we spend money on expensive banner signs for VBS and the food bank instead of making them by hand because he didn’t want to be seen as a low-budget church. He demanded absolute say in every aspect of the missions project and pushed the church to support his personal friends in the field, then rarely made it to meetings and wouldn’t answer questions we needed answered. He openly insulted Catholics in a community with tens of thousands of people from Catholic backgrounds, many right in his own congregation. Then he flat-out lied to the church board about something that had happened in the missions department. The associate pastor (who runs the place now) knew that he had lied but remained silent about it because he believed it was a bigger sin to contradict the guy in charge than to let him lie to the congregation. The worship leader would stop the service and tell people they weren’t worshipping properly, forcing Pentecostal behaviors on them when all they wanted to do was commune with God in their own personal way. I’m still ashamed that I kept my family in that quack-ass building for five years.

    The next church we tried had megachurch ambitions and few principles. Aside from running an expensive private school on campus, that church did literally nothing for the community AT ALL. No food bank, no clothing drive, no toy drive for the holidays, just glitz and show. Then we tried others: one where the pastor railed on and on about how he shouldn’t have to pay taxes to an oppressive government (“give to Caesar what is Caesar’s”, anyone?); another whose pastor basically said that anyone who is poor deserves to be poor because they’re all lazy; and several others whose facilities got a regular coat of paint and fancy signs, but never any upgrades so they were accessible to my wheelchair-using son. (One reason we left an earlier church was that our son couldn’t use a bathroom anywhere on campus, and they strung us along for years about upgrading the facilities. They got a big new kitchen and a big office remodel, yet my son had to empty his catheter into a water bottle in the children’s church office. Once I had to help a disabled newcomer in and out of a bathroom stall; I was blessed to assist him but unhappy that he had to endure that embarrassment in the first place.) On and on and on it went: too little Christ, too much agenda that avoided or directly contradicted what Christ Himself taught.

    It was about four years ago that we dropped the church altogether. I decided if I was going to be a Christian, I had to be a red-letter Christian because without following the specific teachings of Christ, that title is worthless. Operating entirely on the words of Christ alone has been a great spiritual relief and has improved our family’s relationship with each other and those around us. There’s little room in Christ’s own words for manipulation and judgment, which is probably why so many churches cling to Leviticus and Numbers when they deal with the world outside their walls. My faith in Christ has never changed, but I actively hate the state of the Church in general and will never return. I’m more than happy to gather together with true believers outside of a flashy building.

    • CeeBee1953

      I feel your pain, Todd. My husband and I were in some really bad churches and were terribly hurt more than once. I almost gave up hope but I knew I needed the fellowship of other believers. I have since found a church home where I am comfortable, but I am not highly involved, too much pain mistrust still lingering to allow myself to get overly involved, but I enjoy the worship services, I think the pastor and others who teach there are Spirit-inspired for the most part and I see them reaching out into the community in many and varied ways. I hope you can find some sort of community of believers at some point. My prayers are with you.

  • Virginia Moher

    This was a great article. Now I wish a woman would write something similar and explain what it feels like from a woman’s point of view. The expectations that the Church places on women are overwhelming but when we come to the Church for help, we don’t get much. The Church continues to live in the past and pretends that women are not holding down full time jobs outside the home.

    • Would love to hear things from your perspective Virginia! You don’t have to figure out THE woman’s point of view – it doesn’t exist – just ONE woman’s thoughts.

      • Mildrianne Clark

        @ Mr. Shogren, I beg to differ. There is a woman’s point of view. There is a woman’s perspective. We do have a place in the body of Christ.

        • GaryS

          I have to conclude that you completely misunderstood me, Mildreanne, or else I did not express myself clearly.

          Of course women have a place in the Body of Christ. Half of the people I train for Christian ministry are women.

          But what I heard Virginia saying sounded like, “all women share a common Woman’s Point of View.” That has hardly been my experience as I listened to the sisters, whose ideas vary wildly.

          Nor would I sit still if someone said there there is a monolithic manly point of view. We are all individuals, that is to say.

    • Clarke Robertson

      Virginia, I do find that there are churches that are less hostile toward women who work outside the home and recognize their needs, though they may be hard to find. The problem I have is that even most of these churches see women having divinely decreed roles that are subordinate to men, both in the church and in relationships. A growing number of Christians, including myself, see this as an error, with the verses commonly cited at restricting women from certain roles in the church and the home taken out of context. I for one like to consider my partner an equal partner. This is one thing I do see driving some people away from the Church.

      • Virginia Moher

        Just speaking for myself, it’s too late for the Church to get me back. I have needs and those needs were not being met by the Church. I was supposed to give and give and get nothing in return but shame and guilt. Enough!

        • Steve

          Just curious, but are you just done with Church, or with the faith as well?

          i agree with you 110% about the unfair burdens many Churches place on their women. Not all of them can be stay-at-home moms. In this day, odds are they’re single moms with 2 jobs who need a little adult- and God-time, or just need to feel *wanted* and not just needed. It isnt fair, and it certainly isnt what i think of as love becoming of a group of believers who claim to emulate the God of love

          (Granted, too, there are many exceptions out there, but they shouldnt be exceptions)

          • Loreen

            Steve and Rueban, obviously not Virginia, my spouse was cheating regularly, church said I had to forgive, he moved in with his lady friend, I had to forgive. Work in the church? Taught 2 classes, did the funeral lunches, worked the food pantry, the homeless week, food drives, sat on committees. A young man was beating his child and abusing his wife, she was told to forgive even as her spouse was sent to jail. Where is the compassion for the woman?

          • Burke

            To forgive is a conscious decision to not hold something against someone weather they ask for forgiveness or not. Forgiveness does not mean you must continue in an abusive relationship. Matthew 6:14-15 explains why we must forgive. If we walk with an unforgiving heart we are not walking in the fruit of the Spirit and we allow the devil access. Also the body of the church (people) with Jesus as the head should be showing compassion for any of their brothers and sisters that are abused and for that manner helping anyone that needs help. Scripture in Hebrews specifically tells us to be kind to strangers. Scripture in Corinthians specifically tells us to help widows and orphans. In all things we must act out of love.

          • musiccitydawg

            That is one place where many Churches don’t understand the difference between forgiveness and restoration. We must always forgive for our own sake. But that does NOT mean we have to maintain relationship with unrepentant or dangerous people. Any Church or Pastor that would recommend staying in those relationships you described does NOT understand the love of God.

          • Mark Anthony

            That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard a Christian say..You don’t have a clue with your holier than though rhetoric. Repentance isn’t about’s about believing in Jesus. What a Pharisee. Aren’t you glad your not like those big bad people who behave so poorly. This is the reason churches have become void of the work Jesus and Five fold ministry is supposed to. Approved by God unashamed..
            The religious Elites. That seems to ring a bell. The only time the Jesus ever woed anyone. 2.2 people sin. You pay very careful attention to people’s flaws. And you profile them. They never had a chance be loved by Christ loves us. Through you and your religious rhetoric. Your job is to love them, and if you truly love God and had the power of salvation? You wouldn’t be hanging out in the corner sipping your tea eating your cookies talking about all the sinners in your church. It’s a hospital not a country club. Yes, you can hang out with whoever you like. You’ll be surprised to see who’s in heaven my friend. And I think it’s you that needs a change of heart. The mind of Christ. To obey Jesus and the words he said. Is what a wise Builder does. Read Sermon on the Mount. The poor, of spirit. Those who mourn. The center, and those who love Jesus the most. Why don’t you try to find out what that scriptures all about. Those who are forgiven much. No they have much to be forgiven for. And those who seem to think that they don’t send that much. They don’t love Jesus that much. It’s sad to hear some people talk the way you do. It’s the reason I will not step in a church. With my long hair. My background, and the homeless people I work with every day. They smell like urine. They’re hungry, they have issues. They do meth. They received the gospel, and they love to be loved. Your problem is your love is superficial. Then I guess it’s not love at all. Because it doesn’t cost you anything.

          • Judy007

            I read and you made so much sense .. then you mention the “five fold ministry” and chills went down my spine. It was the time of holy laughter and churches passing around huge baskets where women threw in their wedding rings and we said Glory Halleluja and suddenly I knew in my knower I have to get OUT!!! Couldn’t find five fold ministry either – I suppose you could count some talents and call it that, but the religiosity of it when one thinks of it now… it was the time I felt safe with God but not with the sunday building.

          • MusicCityDawg

            So you believe a woman should continue to endure physical beatings from her husband as long he “believes in Jesus” and says he is still trying.

          • GrimmEngineer

            A man (or woman) should not put away his spouse except for the cause of fornication. This is a direct teaching of Jesus Christ that is in the new testament. Jesus understands the breaking of the solemn bond of matrimony and what mental damage this does to the relationship, which is why this is the only exception made. Blessed be the woman who can forgive a spouse of this. But yea, unto you is also given permission to leave upon the breaking of this bond. It is a shame that so many Churches don’t even seem to understand the teachings that are right under their own noses.

          • Judy007

            Sorry where does it say blessed be the woman who can forgive a spouse of this????????
            Where women have married devils, it is a certainty that God was not in it in the first place. Same with men who marry devils. It can happen. When that person is a rogue with your life he has broken the bond – the breach is NOT only about other people in a marriage, it’s the breaking of a vow.

          • Carletha

            the scripture says if we dont forgive neither will our heavenly father forgive us. Un forgiveness is a sin. We forgive those that do us wrong because we dont want their wrong to cause us to sin an then in turn lose out on eternal life and all the good we do to be in vain. Our salvation will not be based off what others do to us but how we show the love of God inspite of it with a pure heart

        • Ruben

          I’m curious what those needs are. What differences between you and men do you see our local churches fulfill and don’t. Looking forward to your reply, Virginia.

          • Dot

            I’m not Virginia, but I would have liked a church a friend of mine attended to not have pressured her into having children, because that’s what women are suppose to do. Pressuring her even though she had Type 1 Diabetes, which had been destroying her body, since childhood. They should have told her to take care of other’s children, so that her children wouldn’t have had to be raised by another woman, since she died having those 2 kids, one who has many physical problems, because of her health problems.

          • happy girl

            I know a pastor who told his congregation that they would go to hell if they didn’t pay their tithes.

          • S. J. Atherton

            Don’t believe you.

          • Dot

            Oh, and then there was the church who pressured single moms who were barely making it on their welfare and child support checks to tithe 10% of those checks, never offering to help feed them or buying their kids clothes. Wanting the mothers to marry the same kind of jerk they divorced in the first place, just to be married.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Tithing should be paid on your INCREASE, not on your gross receipts. If after tabulating your needful expenses and paying those things, what is left over would be your increase. If you are barely paying your bills, then you owe no tithes. THIS is the way of the Lord. If however you voluntarily pay more than a tenth of your increase, then blessed be ye. And if you are a needful recipient of tithes through your church, then also may the Lord bless you. It’s too bad most churches pay themselves (which is against the teaching of the Lord btw) The needful that should be their charge get little of what remains. Find a church whose Pastors/Priests /Bishops are unpaid.

          • Dot

            But this is why people do not want to attend church. My sister decided to leave this church, but she felt she had not right to go to another. I know she should because I know a few, very few churches who truly follow Jesus’ teaching, instead of just worshipping his death. I’m sorry some churches ruin it for all, but that’s what happens, unless other churches aren’t willing to condemn these greedy practices.

          • Rana

            There are good churches. Focus on worshipping the Almighty God, not finding wrong in the church. Find a church where the Word of God is being taught and attend. It only hurts you if you don’t go – Satan wins!

          • Joy Lyle

            I agree! There are many God seeking churches out there, we just hear about the not so good ones. If your heart truly wants to find a good church, God will send you there!

          • Rana

            Creative interpretation!!!

          • GrimmEngineer

            Not really. The law of increase is exactly what was practiced in Jesus’ day. If a shepherd had less flock one year than he had the last, he was operating at a loss, and therefore had no increase. can you imagine if your flock only increased by 5% per year but you gave away 10% of the total flock? Eventually your flock would dwindle away. This would be bad accounting and makes no sense. It is also important to interpret needful things and expenses, not optional luxuries. If you split hairs too much with the Lord, he will split hairs with you. So if your flock increased by 5% and lets say that was 14 sheep, then your tithe would be 2 sheep of your increase, because you always round up in the Lords favor. And also any extra milk gained in excess of the family needs would be tithed too.

          • Joy Lyle

            My late pastor Wendell Thomas said “if you give like you love Jesus it will always be enough.” God knows our heart, he doesn’t need our money, he just wants our heart. When he has that, it all works out, giving, living, loving, etc.

          • justme

            Now you are actively redefining your definitions. In your example, going from 10 sheep to 5 sheep, there is an increase or an income of 5 sheep. That increase IS your entire income (from sheep anyways).

            Saying elsewhere that you only tithe on net and then claiming that to be increase shows a lack of understanding. Do you think anyone is claiming that what you already have and have already tithed on it income for a second time? If you get paid $5 this week and $5 the next week, do you count your 1st week pay again?

            Please examine the heart with which you are approaching these conversations. You appear to be very willingly seeking confrontation, but at the expense of being dishonest. Even in the LDS faith is this how you believe you should act? Does this fall under milk before meat (lying to non-believers in order to convert them)? Do you believe your spirit in these conversations is choosing the right? That you have done all that you could do?

            For if you are seeking contention, then have you not sinned? And if you have, have you done all that you could do and made all of the right choices? Per the LDS faith, your approach is very likely affecting your faiths idea of salvation.

          • GrimmEngineer

            All the costs in maintaining the herd and household are base costs. Sorry, no time to go into it. Have fun.

          • Mary

            Unfortunately where the pastor is unpaid, he is so busy with a paying job to get a salary to provide the basics for his family and make up the slack from the lack of giving/tithing flock that he really doesn’t have time to pastor his flock except to give the Sunday sermon. Like it or not the church has expenses. In the years following the ascension of Christ to heaven, followers of Christ provided the needs of the apostles. We should be doing same now so the pastor can pastor instead of selling coffee to make ends meet.

          • GrimmEngineer

            The LDS church seems to function fabulously. Maybe it’s because we all pitch in? Hmmm….

          • Apologist

            The LDS works well because it is a corporation which owns gigantic business ventures and funds its chapters from its bureaucracy. It also deviates from true scripture and adds its own heretical apocrypha to its teaching. The book of Mormon is a damnable travesty and the actual doctrine of the LDS strays so far from the truth that to call it Christian makes you guilty of, as Jesus put it, “causing one of these little ones to stumble” and would be better to be drowned with a millstone around your neck than to do so. If you can’t agree fully to the Apostles’, Nicene, AND Athanasian Creeds, you are not a true believer in Christ.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Remove the beam from thine own eye, before the mote from thy brothers, that ye may see clearly. Such hate is clearly rooted in evil. Judge a tree by the fruit it bears.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Quick question for you. When Jesus said to his disciples after his resurrection that it was time for him to go because “Other sheep have I that are not of this fold” and he needed to visit them also. So who were the “other sheep” that were were not even “of this fold”? And just exactly how would the resurrected Christ visit them? Much as he visited his disciples? To believe that his disciples in Israel were the only people on the planet he visited is quite closed minded, and clearly contradicted by his own words.

          • S. J. Atherton

            Actually Grimm, we have accurate reports that He’s visiting Moslems. ✨

          • RJW

            Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),
            Gal 1:2 and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:
            Gal 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
            Gal 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
            Gal 1:5 to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.
            No Other Gospel

            Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
            Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
            Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
            Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! That is what the bible says no Book of Mormon needed, when Christ sets you free you are free indeed and will look and assist others with compassion since they received the love of God, and are forgiven on the basis of faith alone.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Do you even know what the Bible is? It is a compilation of different gospels/books/testimonies written by different people separated in some cases by thousands of years and in differing lands. It serves only the arrogance of surety that you would accept only the one compilation (The Bible) and no others. I smile widely in disbelief also knowing that the included gospels of the old and new testament were hand picked and groomed to the tastes of King James by the autocratic servants of the monarchy. Such ignorance to think that it is by any means the complete and only truth. What a total lack of understanding of the origins of the words you and I both hold so dearly. It is as unto an ostrich with it’s head in the sand, what it cannot see must not be real.

          • RJW

            I know. An angle presenting a different gospel from plates by mr smith with no archeological evidence found in the us saving a different gospel does no make it

          • GrimmEngineer

            You know little of what you are commenting about. The evidence is strewn about the Guatemalan and Yucatan peninsulas. One only needs to look. The plates were commanded to be carried for many months and buried where they were in upper state NY. It says this in the book itself, which is a compilation of many authors testimony of what happened. It is becoming more and more clear that these were the pre-mayan peoples.

          • Joseph

            The main reason I am disillusioned with the church is because of the corruption. Nigerian “pastors” peddling the love of Christ, disgraced American tele-evangelist sucking the money out of middle class folks, Catholic and Anglican priests abusing children. I could go on and on

          • dosmastr

            keep in mind, those are perversions of the teaching. never judge a worldview by its perversions but by its basic teachings.

          • AJ Brady

            Christ warned us that there would be wolves in sheep’s clothing

          • Michael Wall

            +GrimmEngineer That’s not the reason you should be disillusioned, after all the bible did warn there would be frauds. The reason to be disillusioned is their own apologies. They tell us that the church is merely human and we shouldn’t expect too much.
            Excuse me! If God isn’t present would you mind taking His name off the sign? When you pass the plate would you please refrain from asking us to “give to the Lord”?
            You see we’re not looking for perfection, but we are looking for a group that is genuinely plugged in.

          • RJW

            but the Holy bible says that, I’ll quote let the bible speak for itself. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g]accursed! That was written before Mormon plates and it is different gospel altogether based on a false christ whom Mormons say is created and not the Real Christ who cheated the universe man who left his Heaven to become man and died for our sin. Col 1:15-23. To trust in a different christ (one that was created), is no christ at all . And in the end, whoever trusts in the christ instead of the Living Chirst will still be in their sins. Which is why the correct Christ(Deity) not the plate man made one (christ who as created) Is pivotal to where you will spend eternity in heaven with God forever forgiven by Christ(Deity) who paid the price for our sins or hell paying you your sins yourself, without God, forever. Because the created mormon christ can not forgive sin. The mormon may spell the same but eternally different. Christ(Deity said that there is a Hell The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:14-31). as well as a Heaven (
            Luke 23:39-43)

          • GrimmEngineer

            Still sounds like you are taking it wrong. You still seem to know little of what you are talking about because what you are spewing is really confusing. You must have gotten this stuff from some hateful evangelists. I’m not understanding your whole “created Christ” thing. What are you talking about? The teachings of Christ in the book of mormon are almost a perfect mirror of those in the new testament. What makes you think that we don’t believe Jesus Christ is the son of God AND the creator of the universe? We use the Holy Bible AND the book of mormon-another testament of Jesus Christ. Who told you these lies? It really sounds like you don’t even know what the book of mormon says. If you would like to ask some basic questions about our beliefs, then I will answer them for you. But please don’t go by rumor and innuendo, these are the precursors of hate.

          • RJW

            AND? AND? Not confusing at all I know a lot of Mormon there lives look better cleaner than mine they are knowledgable and a lot of good works. they tithe, they go to temple, family oriented, mission oriented, save for disaster planners, they have good works. and the more they have is there ticket too heaven a eventually become a god. The thing is that has nothing to do with sin how good you are. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, God is HOLY and no sin will ever enter his presence. Which is why Christ(DEITY and Man) left heaven to live a perfect life that we Man couldn’t not Christ 100% God and 100% man. His birth He was born of a woman and by Gods Spirit. (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27, 34) which make Jesus able to give salvation to those who call on his name by Faith alone and not works. Works will never save anyone because works can not erase sin. Faith in Jesus(Deity and Man) Alone + nothing. = Salvation.

          • GrimmEngineer

            OK, I can’t seem to make sense of your incoherent arguing. I’m not sure exactly what point it is you are trying to argue? And I do not disagree with your words or quotation so please tell me exactly what it is you think you are saying about mormons? Of course everyone sins. Who told you we believe otherwise? I’m not sure what point you are trying to make please be more clear about exactly what point you are saying is wrong? And don’t forget “faith without works is dead”. You need both.

          • RJW

            true. faith. no works no faith, as far savalation goes it in Christ Alone. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the Father but by me. If any man is in Christ he is a New creation Titus 3:5. God gives us the desire to do good works to please Him and gratitude for what he has done for us. We will want to do good works God puts His Holy Spirit into our heart to know him. I pray that He will you insight into this. a a lot of folks have it the other way around. if I do this or if I do that for God then I will I be pleasing to him and have another plus on my side. Salvation is found in no one else their is no other name by which we must be saved. This site explains it better.

          • Savannah Nash

            I don’t understand why LDS would even come to this site. That branch of my family believes they are the only Church because Joseph Smith is the only one who got the right temple plans, the right doctrines and covenants and the best testimony ever from the angel, and confirmed it all with the burning in his bosom that it was the right way. Because all the denominations around were false and displeased God so much he appeared to JS. So if it is indeed the only church, why frequent a site not even talking about the LDS church. Seems strange, the missionaries that have come to my door tell me your Church is growing leaps and bounds, so why are you coming to a website for Church plants, that are not being done by your church. The BOM is not based on Biblical christianity, because remember JS was given the right gospel and doctrine because the current ones were lacking, right. And he had more revelation for going back to taking more than one wife, because that was what was done in ancient days, right? and then there were the special temple garments that added to holy living, right? and not to mention the sealed marriages, which permitted everlasting families, even though NONE of the OT or the NT ever mentioned marriage as a heavenly institution, but that had to be corrected, right, because even the prophets of the OT and the rabbis and the priests missed that revelation somehow. Even though the actual temple ceremony has NO origin in Hebrew culture but in the occult practices of ancient times, that were heathen and paganistic. Messiah never had a brother, in Satan. Satan was a fallen angel, not part of the Godhead, but Joseph Smith wrote that wasn’t a proper interpretation either. Joseph Smith is regarded as a prophet, and yet his status as “prophet” doesn’t align with scripture, so either God didn’t know how to get the job credentials right from the beginning or something is amiss with his calling/vision, etc. The fact is Joseph Smith had a whole different occupation, something quite contrary to ALL scripture. He created a new religion based on some obscure notions, and tried to pawn it off as the new deal. He got quite the following and it is still going. Despite the facts, which is why it baffles most people who haven’t been brought up in the culture. LDS build churches and perpetuate a very large real estate venture adhering to good moral principles. Jesus Christ, Messiah, came to build a Kingdom not of this world, not associated with Kolob, but to have a Bride saved by grace, by HIS shed blood, period. Not rituals, not works, not anything that man can do gets them to the spiritual Kingdom. The Body of Christ is the Bride, the only heavenly marriage happening there. No extra planets, no need for anymore priests as He alone is our high priest. No need to create more spiritual progeny. He did it all on Calvary, and there was NO need of sending an angel to impart anymore instruction, because His last words were IT IS FINISHED…any prophets coming after would TESTIFY to the risen Messiah, not coming with a new plan, new church, new set of rules, new covenants, etc.

          • Carol Null Null

            Whew! amazing, God must have been with you as you were penning these timeless truths.. thank you Savannah for sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ !

          • Michael Wall

            +RJW Let me ask you a simple question. Do you feel like you grow more spiritually by helping a stranded motorist or by looking at wrong images on the internet? or do you feel neither affect you?
            I would adamantly say the former. By practicing righteousness we strengthen those spiritual muscles.
            Granted, that there is a certain amount of spiritual growth and struggling before you take action, but often we don’t really want to do righteousness, but we feel like we should.
            If we fail to take action, the next time it will be easier to do the same.

          • justme

            Incorrect. Faith is all that is needed for salvation. Jesus died not just for original sin, but for ALL of our sin.

            The LDS concept that after all you can do, Jesus’ sacrifice will pay for the rest is not Biblical. There is NOTHING we as finite beings can do for an infinite God. We can only accept his offer of salvation. All of our works are but as dirty rags so that no man may boast that his salvation comes in any way from his own effort.

            Additionally, the LDS belief that Baptism is required for salvation is not Biblical. If it were, how then did the thief on the cross go to Heaven? For Jesus told him that before this day was done he would be in his father’s presence with him. Either Jesus was wrong (not possible) or the belief that baptism would be required for the thief (or anyone) to go to Heaven is wrong.

            But back to your point, Jesus said you will know a tree by the fruit it bears. A dead tree bears no fruit. A dead faith bears no fruit. But the act of bearing fruit (doing works) is not what makes the kind of tree (works is not what makes a Christian), it is how they are identified. In addition to this, many people also make the mistake of thinking that all works have to be outward. This very egregiously overlooks the most important works, those of growth and change in the believer. Many of these works will not be observable at a casual glance, but only through detailed retrospection and an examination of your past vs your present self.

          • Fedup Pauper


          • Sundown

            John 1:1-5 “1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.”
            If a person has faith, or hope, or love, he or she will act accordingly. Faith and works go hand-in-hand as one responds in trust and obedience to God. This belief and response are seen clearly in Jesus’ great commission to his apostles (Mark 16: 15,16). “And He said unto them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned”. The Apostle Paul also said to the Christians of Galatia, Galatians 3: 26,27, “For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”. As you now read Hebrews Chapter 11, note how unfailingly these great people of God were moved by their faith to God’s will. The realization of this principle motivated James to say, “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (James 2: 24). It is obedient faith that saves.

          • JJ truth

            LDS go around baptizing dead corpses. The Gospel of Christ is for the living — not the dead. The Lord God Almighty is called the “Living God” for good reason. Once you are dead its too late to accept Christ. Too bad the LDS can’t grasp this.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            Jesus said those in their GRAVES are only SLEEPING and all will be also raised up FIRST in the LAST DAYS…..True!

            11:17-27 “Now when Jesus came, he found that Lazarus had already been in
            the tomb four days. Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off,
            and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them
            concerning their brother. So when Martha heard that Jesus was coming,
            she went and met him, but Mary remained seated in the house. Martha
            said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have
            died. But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give
            you.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said
            to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last
            day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever
            believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who
            lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She
            said to him, “Yes Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of
            God, who is coming into the world.”……Christians! you need to know the WORD….Not what you assume…..Amen.

          • Bobi Lytle

            Just to clarify, LDS do not baptize corpses. And never have. It is proxy baptism performed by the living in behalf of the dead.

          • AJ Brady

            I agree with just me, you dont need works for salvation. Many a man have confessed on their death bed, were baptized and saved. Does that mean they dont receive the same reward? “For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, whoever believes in Him shall be saved.” John 3:16

          • Born again 1996

            The problem is thier version of the Bible changes the words and tus the meaning of referenced verses. You cant get through to them. No Holy Spirit dwelling on the inside of them.

          • justme

            The problem with the teachings of Christ from the BOM mirroring the teachings of Christ from the Bible, is that they actually mirror the wording in the KJV. Consider that the BOM was claimed to have been written many centuries prior to the KJV version, and your previous comments alluding to how little you think of the KJV version, why then is it that the BOM word for word quotes the KJV version? And no, the claim that they both draw from the same source material is not an answer. The BOM for example includes word for word italicized text from the KJV bible. This is text that was added by the KJV translators to clarify passages that did not easily translate into English. In other words, they are additions that had to be added during the act of translation, they were not present in the original text.

          • Fedup Pauper

            Thank you! Truth!

          • Savannah Nash

            and the BOM is constantly being updated by newer revelation, but I thought it was ALL given in the vision so that man could finally have the RIGHT version, wasn’t that the reason for a new testament of Jesus Christ for the Latter Day saints, but evidently JS didn’t get it right either, as it keeps getting revision by the newer church prophets…so WHEN does the world get the FINAL revised version of the other testament if it keeps changing, and being updated by the latest prophet????? and why is it that it CHANGES per the cultural popularities and opinions???? It tries desperately to please the political climate as far as possible. I suspect that soon there will be a new vision/revelation that says homosexuality is a god given right and same sex marriage will be ushered in those temple rites, much as polygomy came and went. First is was sanctioned as what God intended, so the brethren needed to get more wives, then in comes the government sanctioning it illegal for impending statehood, and gee, it went away (mostly) . I won’t touch on the race card, but there again, pressure from the culture played out there as well. I love a religion that just keeps adapting to the social mores, it keeps it all friendly and happy don’t ya think!

          • Pete

            Joseph Smith also tells us that God came from the planet Kollob

          • Carol Null Null

            well done, very well articulated.

          • lee

            Dud you are a clown, that is destined to an eternal he
            l if you do t denounce your pride, repenting of your sins to the living God that He mat extemd salvation unto you. WAKE UP!

          • Michael Wall

            +RJW You are 100% correct sir, but now let’s apply it to the other ‘sects” of Christianity. Christ never preached a “trinity” either. You can perhaps infer it from the text, if you are so inclined, but there is no question that understanding is not taught in the bible, if so, will you show me where? To the contrary He reaffirmed the teaching of one God in Mark 12:29. Jesus kept dietary laws AND the sabbath before and after His resurrection, but modern Christianity uses weak verses to abandon those.
            Oh!, I know you will find excuses to accept those changes, but you have no real biblical teaching to do so, and so I find you in the same place as the mormons, following another Jesus.

          • justme

            The problem with this idea is that Joseph Smith himself claimed that upstate New York was the site of the climatic battle. I understand that since then, as no archaeological evidence is present, the church has revised the location to the Guatemalan and Yucatan peninsulas. The problem this presents though is that Joseph Smith made these claims based on divine revelation and was a prophet (i.e. infallible in these matters). However, the need for revision shows that he clearly was fallible, therefore his claim to be a prophet is shown to be false. The Bible is very clear on this for how we are supposed to test a prophet.

            Additionally, that is not the only instance in which Joseph Smith was wrong when claiming to speak in his role as the prophet. i.e. consider his claim to have found the altar that Adam used to sacrifice on and that the Garden of Eden was located in Missouri. Or any number of other issues, claims, doctrines that the church has since had to revise.

          • Savannah Nash

            you can’t bring up such points, because it all depends on revelation of the burning in the bosom as the only evidence of its validity, and really since the elders go to great lengths to create explanations for the lack of evidence it keeps members from searching out untainted sources of truth. Remember everything not coming from Joseph Smith is regarded as false and wrong and not God inspired…EVERYTHING. He alone is right and trustworthy, everyone else that ever lived didn’t get the revelation he was privy to, and so you MUST take his word that the tablets were real, that his historical account is not false or concocted, and even the translation of the Book of Abramham, that can’t be questioned either, even though scholars OUTSIDE LDS are wrong, unknowledgeable, unlearned, and that translation is exactly what he said it was, though NO one in any branch of academia concurs, they are all misled. They are not of faith, they are false, they are crazy, etc. Why because if you are LDS you accept and believe and are convinced that he alone was infallible on such matters. It is JUST that the rest of the world is hateful towards the true church, right?

          • Sue

            I am SO SORRY for you, Savannah- JESUS CHRIST the MESSIAH is the WAY, the TRUTh, and the LIFE. HE, alone can SAVE your Lost soul. IF you REALLY want to be SAVED, you can trust in no one BUT Jesus Christ-the ONE and ONLY SAVIOR of the World. I challenge you to read the Book of John, chapter one. Jesus is GOD IN THE FLESH, the CREATOR of ALL things, The WORD made FLESH. The Bible alone IS the INSPIRED WORD of God. IF you read the BIBLE with a TRUE desire to KNOW the TRUTH, HE will reveal HIMSELF to you. God’s WORD says to accept no OTHER teaching EVEN if it is from an ANGEL (Galatians 1:8)

            “But should we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

            IF I were you-I would advise that you put something as critical as your very soul into the Hands of GOD-NOT Joseph Smith or anyone else! Trust me, ONLY CHRIST can save your soul and give you eternal life.

            People who truly follow Christ do not hate, don’t judge, (or shouldn’t), and will one day spend eternity with many people of different faiths or denominations-but the ONE factor that ALL must have in Common is that they put their FAITH, TRUST, and OBEDIENCE in CHRIST ALONE. THERE IS NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED……(not yelling with caps-just Emphasizing….the extreme importance.)
            I Hope you will search and find the TRUTH.

          • AJ Brady

            Sue, I think you lost translation somewhere. She is a Christian with LDS family members. Read the posts toward the top.

          • Pete

            And Joseph Smith tells us God came from the planet Kollob, almost spells something else in reverse

          • Warren Norred

            As much fun as it would be to twist this into a “try to reach the LDS member with mere facts”, can we keep this thread to the point of the post?

          • Jenn

            Do you realize that the men who “witnessed” the existence of the plates for Joseph Smith later acknowledged that they’d never seen them with their physical eyes, but rather only with their “eyes of faith?”

          • Fedup Pauper

            LOL. Truth again.

          • Grant Fredericks

            Please know this. You cannot serve GOD with your head, you serve him with your heart. Serving GOD with their heads is the main cause of division in the church today. Serving GOD with your heart requires faith, requires love, requires grace, mercy and all other fruits of the spirit. Without faith, it’s impossible to please GOD. If we, as a church, unite in serving JESUS, in spirit and in truth, then we will impact the world more effectively and our intentions, for the world to be saved, will be effective. For the Bible says, where ther’s unity, GOD will command a blessing. My brothers and sisters, let’s unite as a global Christian church, placing all our man-made doctrines aside and fulfill the Great Commission. GOD bless you all.

          • Neal Wray

            None of us (including you my friend) were there but you choose to believe that. And for that matter, why are you on here trying to argue the facts using what is in our own opinions a false doctrine? I am sure you know by now that you are talking to us as if we were part of the LDS community. But here’s the fact. None of us except for you are LDS. Are we on the LDS websites/forums/blogs trying to argue using our own facts against your people? I know that I am not. 99% of my friends are mormons. I am very well familiar with the Mormon doctrine and I even hangout with my friends at institute and the singles/mid-singles groups. I live with my LDS friends too. We definitely are family to each other but we are and always will be in separate churches. I am a Christian and I firmly believe in God’s word being complete in the Bible Only. I will be straight forward with you and tell you right here that us Christians do not believe in the Book of Mormon. Most of us see the Mormon church as a cult and false religion. Now I personally say that you really should see your way out of this conversation since we are not going on your mormons blogs and trying to prove our point there. My friends and I have a solid respect for each other. We agree that we all believe in God. But we also agree that we have completely different beliefs. I am a Christian and they are Mormons. And that is how it will always be.

          • Michael Wall

            +GrimmEngineer Inside many bibles are maps of real places, many of which exist to this day. Of all the places Joseph Smith mentioned, not one trace has been found.He also mentioned items,such as swords that have not been found on this continent. There are whole pages of the “book of mormon” that appear to have been lifted from the King James. The “book of mormon” was originally written in the same Victorian style as the KJV, though there is not one reason that it should have been, having never been translated during the era when that form of speech was popular. His writings are so obviously a fraud, that I wonder anyone is fooled.

          • tina

            If the church would go back to their Hebrew roots and do God’s things in God’s way there would be a lot less people leaving. We have been set free on Christ and we have freedom in God’s instructions which we hose to follow out of love.

          • Judy007

            the church (whoever they are since THE CHURCH IS INVISIBLE) hardly has any Hebrew roots they can go back to. We live under G-d’s grace since he bought it for us.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            Your grace is only GOOD if you remain RIGHTEOUS…..No RIGHTEOUS = No GRACE its that simple….True!.

          • Sheila Rodriguez

            Grace means unmerited favor. It has nothing to do with being righteous. We are saved by Grace not by our works.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            You need to be lead by His SPIRIT….Not by what you hear from the PULPIT!….Amen

          • Judy007

            When we are in Christ Jesus, we have a rudder where we know in ordinary things what is right or wrong. Christians are generous, they WANT to do good to others (it comes naturally, if not check with G-d), they’re the ones who start the soup kitchens (cheerfully) but like Paul said the spirit is willing but the body not. So in this life we will have troubles. Also we repent very quickly and go to bed forgiven in mercy.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            Jesus is the only one to follow…..WHY?….Jesus said….I’m the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE…Amen…..He didn’t say to follow Paul!….Remember he still has a thorn in his side…True!….You said….If not check with G-d……..Jesus said…FOLLOW ME…..Amen…Absolutely…..Jesus said all AUTHORITY has been GIVEN TO ME…..No one comes to the Father except by ME….Your Church nor your Pastor is the way….ONLY JESUS….Amen…..Bless you.

          • robert bradley

            @tina, Do you expect everyone just just turn jewish like you? That hardly seems fair to anyone except your group.

          • trzmp

            Sounds like church in here to me.

          • justme

            The LDS church, in conjunction with BYU, produced a series recently for the 400th anniversary of the KJV. It is called the Fires of Faith and is freely available. It very clearly disputes your ideas that the books were handpicked and groomed to the tastes of King James. If you are LDS then you should know that your opinions on this differ from what your church officially states…

          • Savannah Nash

            Again putting the Church before the WORD. For mercy sake, Jesus, is the WORD, and he didn’t ordain any church to be sovereign…so please if you are LDS, would you PLEASE not harken to the what the “church” states, what it says is approved, but pick up a Bible at the library, if you are so bold get a Jerusalem Bible read it, meditate on it, and ask your Heavenly Father, not your bishop, stake president, or current President, and don’t bother asking the Quorum of 12, go directly to your Heavenly Father in prayer, and if you really want revelation true and accurate, FAST before you do it, after you read the entire Bible and ASK if this is NOT the Holy Scriptures and if they aren’t the truth and the ONLY living WORD of God. The BOM is NOT holy, not GOD breathed or inspired, it is a sad attempt on the part of an UNHOLY con man to counterfeit. Oh that your eyes and ears could receive the revelation that your religions serves man and NOT a Holy God.

          • Jesus is the Head and the church is His body. What happens when the head is severed from the body? Jesus and His church are one. The church is also the bride of Christ. There is so much more. Vine-branches. Shepherd-sheep. Christ-church. Inseparable.

          • Paul

            “I smile widely in disbelief also knowing that the included gospels of
            the old and new testament were hand picked and groomed to the tastes of
            King James by the autocratic servants of the monarchy.”

            The Bible as we know it was actually determined in 325 CE with Constatine and the leaders of the various factions of the Church. King James was the one who got the Bible translated into the KJV as it was before all the other various translations of the Bible came to be.

          • lionsbru

            Wow! Where do you get *this* from? King James had nothing whatsoever to do with determining which gospels were to be included in the New Testament (there ARE no OLD Testament gospels, as the gospels are the story of the coming, ministry, passion & resurrection of Jesus). He only commissioned a translation of the very same books translators had been rendering in English since the beginning of the Reformation (starting with Tyndale, continuing through the very popular Geneva Bible, etc). Nor, for those misinformed by the likes of Dan Brown, did Constantine (or the Council of Nicaea –which he only called anyway, and did not ‘run’) have any hand in determining which books are canonical. The four gospels we have had been recognized throughout the church from very early on (there is strong evidence in the second century).

          • yhoshua

            Wow. Some creative revisionist history being spun there. King James hand picked the books to be included huh? I’ve heard the myth that the Council of Nicaea voted on which books to canonize, but King James? That’s a new one.

            Do some actual historical research. You’ll find that most of the books of the Bible were considered sacred by the early church long before any formal structure or hierarchy was in place to steer them toward selected works. There were a few outliers, but all but a few books of the Bible were regarded as God’s Word by concensus of believers in the first few centuries of Christianity- before Constantine, before Nicaea, before the Roman Catholic takeover and long before King James. It’s amazing how much misinformation is believed without being researched these days…

          • lee

            What a foolish man you are, that you have placed your trust in your intellect. How sad it will be for you on the Great White Throne Judgement, if you do not denouce your pride and arrogance, falling to your needs with a broken and contrite heart, that the one who saves, may receive you into his blossom, remembering your sins no more.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Judge not, lest ye be judged.

          • lee

            You clearly have no revelation of what that scripure means.
            According to John 7:24, those who belong to Christ, as it is clear that you do not belong to Him, is to Judge others with a “Righteous Judgement”. This means we judge another in light of what the Word of God says. If a man is not living his life according to the Holy Scriptures, and nor can he, if he isn’t “Born Again”, according to John 3:3, then he stands guilty as Charged…. A sinner who is destined to a “Lake of Fire”, created for Satan, his demons and all who refuse to except What Jesus did on the Cross for a wicked and sinful world. So, you my friend stand guilty as charged. Your intellect means nothing to Jesus!

          • Carol Null Null

            You have indeed interrupted correctly Jesus ‘ intent when He referred to judging others. Few have understood what the significance of this Scripture. Thank you for sharing God’s truth.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Your sin is apparent. Look above.

          • Lawrence

            Truth nothing will separate me from the love of God……

          • nevertheless I will go

            Hi, everyone I’ve just read the original article posted and numerous responses. I’ve been born again and filled with the Holy Spirit for more than 30 years I’ve also felt like leaving but I’m where God has placed me and I know it, therefore I stay. What I do see in the church is no one is actually discipiling people, they don’t speak of the Lord, I haven’t heard a testimony told in a long time conversations tend to be about kids, finances and politics, I can get that anywhere. When I first got saved having conversations about Jesus Christ and discussing scripture were normal “fellowshipping” helping people grow up in the Lord was normal now I don’t hear anyone quote a scripture especially one that would give another strength. I’ve wondered about this for a long time and have come to a theory of why. People do not have a revelation of the Lord for themselves, their own revelation from the Lord about himself, without a revelation of the Lord there is no strength to stand in Him. I’ve found personally that if I’m spiritually ok then my life is ok, even when the finances don’t meet the need for long periods of time or I’ve got a boss that seems to have it in for me etc. What ever happened to “walk by the spirit and you will not carry out the deeds of the flesh” and going into the presence of the Lord, practicing the presence of the Lord what about simply telling people that if you read your Bible, pray and seek the Lord not only will you find Him but the sermon on Sunday will confirm what God has been speaking to you all week, thus developing a relationship with Him. When I first came to the church I’m in now people were always saying “she/he is trying to take my ministry” the ministries they were trying to protect were; usher, greeter, worship team not once did anyone try to protect the calling on their life nor did they even mention it, when I asked them about the calling on their life thinking it would give them an opportunity to tell of one of the greatest things that ever happened to them, they got very upset and then the response was “oh she thinks she’s so super spiritual” no, I was looking for agreement, after all these years still the greatest sound I’ve ever heard is my Savior’s voice calling my name. So my theory is simply this, church we have our focus so much on what we should do for the Lord instead of having enough relationship with Him to hear him when He tells us what He wants us to do or say, a right word in the right timing can be life saving to another and it doesn’t cost any money to do it.

          • BC

            So beautifully said. I too have felt that way about “church”. I am reading the word more, praying and listening for confirmation–that still, small voice of the Lord. I have not given up on corporate worship. Just that worshipping in a mostly African-American setting is soo hostile at times (have to have the right car, clothes, hair style, fake nails, the right makeup (yes, that’s what I said). Then it’s whose family is closest to the pastor; who the pastor likes; who “looks” the richest, etc., etc. I just got tired. If you don’t believe me, turn on any Christian station. You’ll see. Oh and forget about getting in to get counseling from your pastor if you REALLY need it. Too busy. I’m just doing what I should have been doing all along. Praying and trusting God for my life and the answers. I know he had planted me where I am but I just had to get away for a while. I’m not the only one who feels this way who is AA. Lord help the organized church. I’m just trustin HIM. I really am. Thank you for your insight also.

          • lee

            Clearly you have no idea, that you are using the scripture incorrectly and out of the proper context. You see Jesus commands christians to judge with a “Righteous Judgement”.(John 7:24). That means to judge according to His Living Word. You really should stay away from christian topics and blogs, for your ignorance testifies against you.

          • AJ Brady

            He also says, Judge not and thou shall not be judged. Matt 7:1

          • dosmastr

            the heart cannot delight in what the mind does not exalt.
            If my head isn’t convinced, my heart won’t be in it. Fortunately there is more than sufficient evidence even just in the gospels themselves.

          • lee

            Unfortunately your logic is foolishness in light of the Holy Scriptures.
            Your argument is against Jesus, not me, as I only spoke His words!

          • GrimmEngineer

            Your sin is apparent. I need not point it out.

          • dosmastr

            i fail to see how you claiming your compilation or any other to be superior is any less arrogant or valid. actually the king james bible is far too NEW to have selected the books, you really should read up on church history if you’re going to make claims about it. The books which were generally recognized to be cannon were officially called so in the 200’s and 300’s AD. Notice how I phrased that there, the books ALREADY RECOGNIZED TO BE CANNON were officially declared so at the council’s of the earth church fathers. It was kinda a rubber stamp “ok 95+% of the church feels these books go all the way back, therefore they are official now… those other books, which were obviously written later (see “gospel” of Judas” and other gnostic writings) were condemned.

          • Timothy Fudge

            The King James bible was put together for King James, but I’m not going to get into the whole history of that, but I will get into the history of when the Bible was first put together and that was back in Constantine’s time, when the monarchs of the church came together to pray and form the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Translations since then may or may not have faltered, but if you think for one minute that God was not in control of that then you have no true understanding of God. I’m no theologian by any means, but I do have a grasp of the churches history and it goes all the way back to the time of Jesus! And there are books in the Bible go all the way back to Moses who, under the direction of God, wrote the first 5 books of the Old Testament. God has shown Himself all throughout the Bible, and the churches history, and into today, whither people choose to see it or not. How do I know what I believe is true? Simple. The Holy Spirit confirms it. Without the Holy Spirit’s guidance, the Bible is just another confusing book that no one can grasp, because it contains the wisdom of God, which no one can understand, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit reveals things in His time, not ours!

          • Judy007

            Am thinking of 1 John 2:27 ?? But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. How did the CHURCH work in the days of Christ and Paul? the way it is NOW? can’t get even a GLIMPSE of that? where two or three are gathered together??? the rest I see as writ for the Jews and the Temple goings-on.

          • Alan Clark Jr.

            “God did not say…”- Satan. Same old trick, different cult. Mormon’s-Repent and believe the gospel ONCE delivered unto the saints”. All your rightousness is as filthy menstrual rags before the Most High God. He is not like unto your old man on the planet Kolbol. He is a consuming Fire. Even now He is coming with His Angels to bring judgement. The axe is layed unto the root.

          • JJ truth

            The Holy Bible is divinely inspired God always has the last word.

          • Carey Robinson

            It’s sounds like Cynicism to me. I’m part of a church that is nothing like what you described, and I know countless church’s who break the mold you write about. This blog would have been better suited 10-15 years ago. Not to mention your article is more devisive than unifying. I know there are many ineffective churches out there but let’s not lump “The Church” into that category. If your desire is to help, then earn the right to speak into people’s lives rather then Writing about it with the hope that those who need it will read it. I feel this blog merely contributes to a growing group of Christ Followers more interested in the idea of changing the world rather then actually doing it!

          • Seth

            This is an interpretation. For me, I see this as Christ saying, I have other sheep who do not yet know me (not of this fold), but through you I will bring them into the body of Christ. As a calvinist, I see the later part, “they will listen to my voice” as evidence of God’s sovereignty over salvation. This one verse can have many interpretations, so it being the only scriptural evidence for Christ having “other” disciples in other parts of the world is a logically weak argument, not a determination of “closed” versus “open” mindedness.

          • GrimmEngineer

            And what of the baptisms for the dead, which are actually commented on in the new testament. To think as many churches do, that the billions who have lived never even having had a chance to receive the teachings of the Lord, would be damned? How silly would this be? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And also the requirement that any church of Christ would have the required callings of a prophet, apostles, seventies, bishops, elders, priests, teachers and deacons? Will you sweep this aside as well?

          • lionsbru

            Actually, you are mistaken about WHEN Jesus made this statement — you’ll find it in John 10, NOT after his resurrection.

            The answer is rather obvious from the context of the gospels. Jesus is speaking to JEWS and telling them that his sheep will also include GENTILES who believe in him, and ‘Jew and Gentile (Christians)’ will be ONE. This is a central point emphasized repeatedly throughout the New Testament (Acts 10-15 shows us the transition, and Paul frequently explains this reality, e.g. in Ephesians 2-3).

          • Nell

            You are correct.

          • Fedup Pauper

            Thank you, too for your statement on TRUTH

          • FedUpWIthInsanity

            He did not say this AFTER His resurrection. He said it, to expand the disciples’s misconception that ONLY the Jews would be saved. It was to show them there was a whole Gentile world out there that He INCLUDED. But it was fairly EARLY in His ministry that He said this. John 10:16

          • Nontither

            He was speaking of the Gentiles.And he wasn’t speaking about visiting them physically but by the preaching of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit.

          • whisperingsage

            The other sheep are simply gentiles, that is all of us not the Children of Israel. We are those putting faith in Christ and of the grafted in branch.

          • Ellena Navarro

            I think that those “Other sheep” was referring to the Gentiles that he would witness to later. Meaning us.

          • yvette causey


          • Ben Van Vacter

            Too, true. If anyone could have been a Mormon, I could have been one. Fortunately, the Lord took me away from their influence and put me into a bibe believing church. They are a seemingly nice group of people but greatly deceived by Joseph Smith. Unedited history declares what kind of man he was…a deceitful, Scripture twisting, megalomaniac. I am greatly saddened by the deception of so many in the “church” of the LDS.

          • GrimmEngineer

            It is a good thing I was taught not to speak ill of other’s religions. Such is the nature of hate, which we all know the root of. It is a shame so many churches feel it necessary to lash out at other faiths in such an un-christ like manner. I remember when the Baptists showed up at one of our pageants to hold signs and protest against us. We treated them with love and rspect and even gave them food and drink. Then it started to rain and some of our elders set up an awning for them so they wouldn’t get wet. It is amazing how many of them turned their signs around and stared at the words of hatefulness they were preaching. In the face of such kindness and love they were dumbfounded and many of them left that day. Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Megalomaniac I think not. there have been many lies told and tales twisted, but Jesus commanded forgiveness and love to all, even thine enemies.

          • justme

            Do you forget the opening statement in the BOM? The part that says all of the Christian denominations / beliefs that existed prior to Joseph Smith are an abomination before the eyes of God?

            Please be very clear that when Christians defend our faith against that of the LDS church, we are not attacking you. We are DEFENDING Christianity, the Bible, and God against the aspersions that started with Joseph Smith himself. The LDS church claims that Christians do not have the full gospel and that what they do have in the Bible was corrupted as soon as it was set down in writing. The LDS church claims that Christian beliefs are wrong and that they are the result of a great apostasy.

            It is very dishonest of you to claim that you would never attack another persons religion or beliefs.

          • Paul

            “The LDS church claims that Christians do not have the full gospel and
            that what they do have in the Bible was corrupted as soon as it was set
            down in writing. The LDS church claims that Christian beliefs are wrong
            and that they are the result of a great apostasy.”

            I have long removed myself from going to church because of a couple of different reasons. I do not support the church of the LDS nor fully support the Christian church. If we look at history, Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire in 300CE under Emperor Constatine. In 325, he got the leaders of various factions of some of the branches of Christianity and together, they decided what would put into the Bible and what would be removed.

            Knowing this, the Bible isn’t complete as it doesn’t have all gospels that were written, only those books that the leaders wanted their followers to hear and learn from. Now, I do understand that the early church wanted consistency and that some of these gospels and books did not fall in line with their dogma, the whole story is not being told. Like many history books, the “victor” gets to write them while only certain information from the other side (the “losing” side) is often removed all together.

          • yhoshua

            You’re repeating myth, not history. Constantine legalized Christianity, that’s it. He did not form the Catholic Church- that was Theodisius. Constantine did not control the selection of the books of the Bible- that didn’t even happen at the Council of Nicaea. Read some actual history rather than taking the word of internet rumors and conspiracy theorists. Scripture was considered scripture long before official big wigs were around to influence the matter.

          • AJ Brady

            The belief is that a Greek theologian was the first to put the Bible together the way we know it today. But all agree that the Second Council of Constantinoble agreed to the books officially. Many believe that books were excluded and destroyed, but who really knows for sure?

          • yhoshua

            No, all do not agree that the Second Council of Constantinople agreed to the canon. That council happened in 553AD- long after the formation of the Roman Catholic church. Heck, that council was long after Patrick spread the gospel to Ireland and the Celtic Church emerged. To argue the Bible didn’t exist, or that the books weren’t recognized as canon until the 6th century is absurd.

            Who really knows for sure? Anyone who bothers to read actual history. Most of the notes from those councils have been preserved.

          • Victor Hafichuk

            Only by the Spirit of the Lord can we know what should be considered as inspired of Him or not. There is no other way. Anything can be considered a gospel; anything can be considered as a legitimate component of the canon of Scripture, but what does God have to say? If men don’t know what is inspired of God it’s because they don’t know Him.

          • Savannah Nash

            so why not be Messianic as the early “church” was, they were essentially Hebraic with the belief in Messiah. They didn’t change a whole lot, most kept the feasts.observed the law and Sabbath. I think the house fellowships and gatherings were more in keeping of the true “church”, the Book of Acts is the model for church. Before Yeshua came, you didn’t have church. Jews went to temple. They observed holy days and feasts, and did sacrifice. They went to synagogue or at least the men did, and they learned Torah orally from an early age. They didn’t attend anything like what we know as church. Church is a newer concept, and even before Rome got involved it was nothing like what accounts for church on American soil. Apostacy is the definition of Joseph Smith…he was an apostate in every sense, which makes me chuckle…

          • Michael Wall

            I don’t know if it’s so much that the church picked what was to go in to the new testament , but what was without a doubt is that at the council of Nicea, when Arius lost the debate over the nature of Jesus, anything he had written in support of his view was considered heresy and was destroyed. I think it not a stretch to believe that any historical documents that supported his view would have been destroyed also. This was the established method of the Roman Catholic church. They didn’t hand pick the scriptures, they just destroyed every document that disagreed with them, and it’s not so much that Constantine manipulated the council, it;s that after a decision was reached, he came down with an iron fist against any opposition. He didn’t care about truth so much as he cared about quelling strife in his kingdom.

          • Art Dickinson

            At the beginning of this mess, someone suggested that the discussion would descend into bickering about irrelevant technicalities. And it did. This is why, since I began to think for myself, I have never felt closer to my Creator than when I was in the midst of a forest or a vast desert, deep in meditation, and usually alone.

          • Savannah Nash

            As long as there are individuals. There will be differing opinions. Christians don’t have the market on that, and neither do any other religions, Man can’t agree, our own pride and arrogance will never agree. Americans are taught to be free thinking from early on, much of the other cultures are more conformist than those on our soil. So Art why did you even come on here to look, you already KNEW what you would find. Fess up, I know you knew…blessings on your alone time, may you be enlightened sweetie!

          • I wish I could get even a third of the comments on my blog (pro/con for/against). Alas! Even my blog “followers” have ceased visiting them. Do I have to write provocative articles to get a response from readers?

          • Jehovah’s Witnesses do the same. Judge & condemn every other religion & denomination as false & apostate then whine the moment someone criticizes them.

          • Savannah Nash

            it ain’t just JW’s it is every breathing person, we all have the notion we have arrived at the truth…

          • Savannah Nash

            we are NOT attacking you, we are attacking a man made incredibly concocted scheming man who DUPED people over and over and over again!!! LDS is NOT Christian, nothing about it aligns with Christianity at all. That is not attacking YOU, it is attacking a man who deceived a group of people to follow his dream (which wasn’t BIBLICAL) wrote a book claiming to be another testament. The temple is NOT christian ceremony, it is pagan and taken from heathen philosophies, it is NOT what Jesus Christ wanted as “the” church at all. Look it up, go to library go get books on Masons, and compare the ceremonies. Read anything written about the Book of Abraham outside church approved documents. Nothing Joseph Smith did aligns with the “office of Prophet”, get out your Bible and read what the qualifications of a prophet are/were, and then see if his criteria aligns. Be bold, be brave, and look at the information outside church explanations about what kind of life Joseph Smith actually lived. And then if you want people who were like you, go read some of the stories that put your religion in context and why many have left. Christians don’t hate LDS people they hate that what the LDS religion practices is AGAINST the Bible in so many ways, so they would prefer if the LDS church would STOP saying they are Christian, split off entirely. Stand alone and be their own deal and not try to say they are something, or present that they are something they are NOT. Instead they keep insisting they follow Jesus Christ…The doctrine of who the Mormon Church believes to be Jesus Christ does NOT align with Christianity, it is a different deity all together, and not based at all on the Bible, but a strange man’s vision. That is where the conflict is, not with you personally. If the LDS church would stand alone, and say we have a different take on how to get to heaven and how to live. I don’t think the conflict would be so intense. But to say it is Christian is what bothers people who follow the Bible as the only WAY, TRUTH and life of Messiah, Jesus.

            Joseph Smith is the basis of the religion, his dreams, his books. His life is in OPPOSITION to most everything that a Christian holds dear, and that is why it ruffles the masses. Most of the Christian Protestant denominations only differ on a few points. They don’t practice bizarre pagan ritual, don’t believe in having a temple…Jesus spllit the veil into the HOLY of HOLIES, abolishing the need for a temple, because He lives in the heart, He was the lamb that was slain, He finished it up. No more temple rites, no more priestly activities, ceremony. LDS follow the prophet, you sing, follow the prophet songs. Christianity doesn’t FOLLOW a prophet, we don’t sing songs glorifying John the Baptist, who was a prophet. We sing songs glorifying the LAMB, worshipping the Lamb that was slain. Who cares about a prophet, mere mortal, too limited. I think the LDS would fair WAY better in the eyes of most if they would stand up and say…we really have an alternative religion, we don’t need to say that we are Christian, we are totally different, and they ARE…

          • Savannah Nash

            I am heart sick over how many are duped, why they are duped, and how they continue to be duped. They are wonderful genuine people being led astray and it KILLS me. But if you talk to those who left, or go to or other such sites, and you read what happens or how much they can lose by leaving that religion behind, you just well up in tears for those who do make it out of the “church” and how they have such a hard journey back to faith. The betrayal the deception really harms. But God is real, Joseph Smith’s religion is not, Jesus is Love, the LDS doctrine is NOT. Talk to the missionaries after their 2 yrs, most are so disillusioned. They know they have to basically lie to get mbrs baptized, and once those find out the real behind the scenes religion, they realized what the missionaries told them isn’t at all what the church is about.

          • AJ Brady

            In the book of Revelations 7:9
            And I John looked up and saw a multitude of people I could not count, from every tribe and every nation…….
            You dont know who are true believers. Only God know that.

          • Fedup Pauper

            Amen! Tell the truth! and SHAME the devil…

          • whisperingsage

            Yup, also owns Pepsico.

          • Jumin Rhee

            I believe GrimEngineer was talking about the governance and organization, not necessarily the doctrine. In either case, perhaps one should not be so quick to cast the first stone. Peter and Paul never attacked another religion/denomination, they used knowledge of the other religion to argue for christianity.

          • banislam

            I certainly don’t agree with assholes like you.

          • banislam

            People are leaving Church because of people like this APOLOGIST. I’m so tired of Christians it’s crazy. I mean I’m DONE. Bible and book burning coming son!

          • yvette causey

            Right on!

          • Kaela

            The Mormon church is also experiencing a great exodus.

          • GrimmEngineer

            That’s interesting considering the growth rate is still several points in the positive direction. Via 3rd party statistics also.

          • monk_87

            It’s essentially because you adhere to your tradition (creed). The ancient Christian churches do that too.

          • whisperingsage

            You mean FORCED to pitch in. I have several Mormon friends.

          • Pascal

            Well, it is not the SOLE job of the preacher to pastor the flock. That is the job of the elders (which he may be one of them).

          • Greg Short

            AMEN MARY!!!

          • Edwin

            Mary I am in South Africa and if u don’t have the Lord you will have nothing,churches are also closing doors here because the people are taken a knock with finances and don’t pay tithes .Secondly if the pastor preaches a mess with the Holy Spirit it is very good , and thirdly I believe a church is there to use its gifts to reach out to the people and outside and lost and the church must train them to disciple

          • Victor Hafichuk

            There are only two churches, the true and the false, Do you truly know to which church you are referring? Can you tell?


          • jozie

            You are what’s wrong with the church…people like you…Tithing for one is un-biblical, Pastors need to get a job like the rest of us…Second, why are people like you convinced they need a Pastor to fulfill their every need? Get your butt out of the pew and start teaching yourself, read your bible!…There are so many things wrong with the church establishment of today..false teaching abounds…cultish like groups from within with those women cicks, and leader positions…why in the world do we need so many bout getting out in your own neighborhood for starters..As for the Apostles, they lived a harsh life and gave their life for the gospel, certainly far from Pastors of today who live off the backs of the flock living in cribs in upscale neighborhoods while single parents struggle..Palease, wake up!…Pastors are for newborns who need to hear the gospel, after that there is no more need for a teacher..let the holy spirit be your guide and counselor…Pastors are to be servants not dictators! we all are equals, not one higher then the other, not one lording it over the other…we don’t need buildings, we are the building..stop building buildings that take and take our resources but feed the 5 thousand…feed them the word and give them food and drink! The church is corrupt and crooked and they won’t change bc they love their position’s of authority, they love power and they love money…Where is Jesus in all this? I left your faulty brand of church a long time ago!!

          • Lea Rice

            well said. someone has been reading God’s word.

          • Jan Bowman

            Believers didn’t just supply the needs of the apostles,the entire early church took care of each others needs ,and they didn’t have to be apostles to qualify for help one from another. The scriptures written by the apostles taught them to take care of one another needs, and one of the churches hugest problems is they have become the pastor only church instead of a living organism they became an organisation instead. The care one for another in the church has basically vanished out the door.

          • lee

            Sounds good, but if the living word of God doesn’t support your words, you can’t take it upon yourself and make it a mandate. Has it ever occurred to you that most churches fail financially, because Jesus didn’t call the church to be birth, in the first place? The overwhelming amount of churches in America, are business ventures.
            Men and women attain professional degree, that they may open a church for profit.
            The fact that churches have expenses goes without saying, however, it’s an tired and weak argument. If God birth a church, don’t you believe He will maintain it? Jesus says in Jeremiah 21:23, that they went out and he did not send them. They have run with their message and prophesy, but I did not speak to them. Again, their are many false prophets who have gone out in Jesus name for profit. But also, there are many people who profess to children of God, and has never been “Born Again”, according to John 3:3. Those who are not born again are ignorant to the lies of Satan, for they are still blind, walking in darkness, for it takes a born again believer, who posses the “Holy Spirit”, to discern the truth of God’s word and what has been spoken here in.

          • whisperingsage

            My Pastor /husband works a job to take care of the church, and if he had let me get my RN (instead of stopping me at LPN) we would probably be able to have afforded our old building. We are in a recession area since the 90’s and nobody ere has any money, they are mostly screwed up, on disability and have messed up behaviors. They don’t even have the sense to not beg from us personally because that is what they were raised doing. (we are no better off right now, until I can get back to work).

          • Marla Milton

            True! People think the church does not have expenses or responsibilities to the government. People who have given little to nothing to help the church move forward expect much in return when they are ‘in need’. Do you think all pastors just suck up all the money??? No, some pay the bills and even have to come out of their personal pockets to help the church stay alive so that the lights are on when YOU do decide to come to church. How about trying this on, go to church because you need it. It’s about your PERSONAL relationship with YOUR God. Not about anything else.

          • Judy007

            like Paul did?

          • Degotoga

            BS, pastors are not doing anything Monday through SATURDAY, THEY CAN GET A JOB.

          • Jumin Rhee

            I personally think each church organization HQ (baptist, catholic, methodist, etc) should collect the offerings and ensure all in the church are taken care of – including the pastor.

          • banislam

            I’ve never known a pastor who struggles. I’m tired of Church and the followers of Jesus. I may just become an Atheist because I can’t stand Christians anymore. They can’t agree on anything and condemned me for believing different. I’m ready to burn all of my bibles and books, and I have a slew of them as a former minister. I’m done. I’ll post my Christian book burning on Youtube.

          • jozie

            There is nothing in scripture to support this teaching that the church is responsible for supporting a pastors lifestyle … it is pure pride and arrogance and misinterpretation of the scriptures

          • jozie

            Like it or not, you are not in line with scripture, Mary. Your kind distort and twist God’s word for your own personal gain, and how sad it is.
            No where in scripture does it state the body is required to support a pastors lifestyle, ESPECIALLY to burdening those who are struggling financially!
            It should be the other way around, the leaders living lavishly ought to be caring and meeting specific needs of the poor … where and in what church is this occurring?
            Taking scripture out of its context, using it as weaponry, misinterpreting and using half truths are the tools of deception and profiting is the goal, period. There is simply no other justification for money to even play a part. And that is why God’s tithe was Food NOT money. God knew what he was doing when it came to money.
            The early church understood this and provisions like food and shelter were provided as there was need. Not this ridiculousness we see going on today. A collection was taking up once for the poor and sent to Jerusalem … today the church, which is billions rich and tax exempt, begs for money repeatedly week after week after week. The people who actually need it doesn’t get it. After watching this year after year, I’d had enough … those who practice church like a business ARE a business, actually they’re a corporation, and not the true church … your running and supporting a corporation, Mary … that’s all. Go educate yourself about the Jewish Apostles and the way. Ancient Israel and the early church did not run the church like it is ran today. They were a true family, inclusive, caring, loving, discerning.
            I believe if pastors truly cared for God and his people, he would gladly get a job like the ones who have a job and volunteer for free, while a pastor draws a salary, how arrogant and entitled for a pastor to do this, they just wanna be a God themselves. Then they would delegate and everyone would have purpose … oh, the pride of some men.
            I believe any pastor drawing a salary and living off the backs of the week is no man of God at all but a man of self !
            Now go get a job !

          • thippiechick

            Thank you soo much for explaining this. I was always under the impression that my tithe would have to be 10% of all I make and than I was unable to make my housing, food, clothing and transportation cost. I budget as much as I am able yet still unable to do all of that plus 10%. I always wondered how that was to be. Now that I realize it is of the increase..after these expenses have been paid than 10% of what I have I can do that. You do not know how much of a burdon has been lifted. I always felt so bad for not tithing properly that I often simply did not. I always made sure my kids (I am a single mom) have offering and I would put in a love offering but the tith was such a burdon that I could not do and always felt so guilty. GrimmEngineer you will never know what that information has done for me. Thank you

          • Ronald W Robey

            I encourage you to study all the Scriptures that deal with the commanded tithe. If you do, you will find that God never commanded anyone to tithe his or her money to the Temple. You will also find that in the New Testament, tithes were never commanded for, carried to, collected in, or controlled by the Church. God does not want tithe of money, and He never required people living on Gentile soil to tithe.

          • justme

            Your tithe is what you want to give to God. Whatever you do decide to give to him should be given cheerfully and without resentment.

            And remember, it is optional, but this is the only thing that Jesus ever said to test him on. Pray about it, search scripture, and then give what you are led to give. I hope that in turn you will see those storehouses opened up and poured out upon you for faithfully rising up.

          • jusme

            Show me where in the Bible it says to tithe on your “increase.” It plainly says to tithe on your FIRST FRUITS. As far as criticizing a church for paying their Pastor – he not only works for God, but he works for his people. It is only fair that he is paid so that he can provide for his family. Would you work endless hours a day, 7 days a week without an income?

          • GrimmEngineer

            Unfortunately you are all stuck in the now and do not understand the meaning of “first fruits” as used in the bible. Most people didn’t get a paycheck like they do today. Almost everyone produced something. Whether it be cattle, or plants or other goods. So when it came time to pay your tithe it was very often paid in “goods”. Paying with your “first fruits” simply means the finest quality you have produced. When you paid your tithes you gave your best cattle, or sheep, or produce etc. I know it isn’t clear because of the innacurate translations done by many monks in the creation of the King James Bible.

          • justme

            Would you care to clarify how tithing in the LDS scriptures differs from tithing in the Bible (KJV)?

            For example, Alma 13:15 seems to pretty clearly indicate that tithing is from all that you posses, same as the KJV.

            I’m also still confused about why you deviate so strongly from the LDS official stance on the KJV by continuing to denounce it. It is curious that you say the concept of tithing in the KJV “isn’t clear because of the inaccurate translations done by many monks” when many of the passages regarding tithing in the BOM are word for word IDENTICAL to passages from the KJV. i.e. Nephi 24:8 (compare to Malachi 3:8). If the KJV is as wrong as you claim it to be then we are left with no option but to conclude that the BOM is equally wrong, despite Joseph Smith’s claims…

          • Seth

            “In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.” 1 Cor. 9:14… Also see Romans 10:15…

          • Laura

            Tithing is from your first fruits, not your leftovers.

          • Seth

            It’s also an old testament tradition, that you only see mentioned twice int he new testament, neither as an instruction. My view is this: Old Testament, you owe a tenth of your first fruits to God who has supplied; New Testament, you were bought with a price and every dime, resource, or minute in your possession belongs to God who supplies your needs in order to expand his kingdom and glorify him. Why limit it to a tenth? He’s owed all.

          • Teresa Murray

            To give to the churh is not just monetary. Share your money, time, talents, and resources. It is like any community, you should give as you receive. It shouldn’t be a take, take,take. It is about being in relationship.

          • RN Nutrition

            Its not a monetary relationship… that is not Biblical. You give to God in faith… not out of expectation that you will receive anything in return. God already gave His life for you… He owes you nothing else.

          • david

            This comment shows a lack of scriptural understanding.

          • Aztec01

            Yet you offer no counterpoint. How is anyone to know if YOU have any scriptural understanding? It’s surely not evidenced in your snarky sound bite.

          • Judy007

            but he promises much to his own.

          • Noel

            Without keeping his promises. Words (as in words in the Bible) are cheap. God broke His promises to me, if there were any promises at all.

          • Judy007

            BUT you DO live off G-d in his mercy and grace, because of the cross. I don’t understand that the church would insist on anything that you don’t give willingly. Do they ask for your salary slip? Why do people fight here about what the tithe is? If your heart does not condemn you nor does G-d, but it’s between YOU and HIM.

          • DJ Jay


          • John Abolarin

            Tithe is not a tax! It is a free will offering. Those who over the years have learnt to give joyfully don’t see tithe as a burden but account of stewardship. They also know that no one can out give God. If I cannot try God with a tenth of my income I will be deceiving myself to say I can give God 100%.

          • Kelly

            Unless Saint Peter is expecting all of your check. Then “the wrath of God” kills your asses.

          • John Abolarin

            Thank you

          • ACM

            Love this John 😉

          • Ty Str

            John have you not read the Bible lately? We are not to give God any percentage if that percentage is not 100%. have you not heard that we are to present our bodies a living sacrifice? That sounds a lot like 100% to me—– God doesn’t need our nickels and dimes quarters and dollars

          • Judy007

            Yeah I pretty think G-d doesn’t trade in dollars. Never saw a miracle in the bible where Jesus gave money to the poor beggars. They knew in their knowers that they need the bread of life to survive. Muslims boast they pray 5 times a day. Christians pray without cease.

          • Jason Mckenzie

            Muslims don’t boast about praying. At least we pray like Jesus(pbuh), with our faces to the ground..Check out how Jesus(pbuh) prayed in Matt. 26:39, then ask yourself why you don’t pray like He did.. Mumbling under your breath each day doesn’t constitute “pray without cease”..

          • Mark Vilen

            If it’s a ‘free will’ offering, then why do you have a 10% rule? You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth.

          • John Abolarin

            Thanks. Tithing is a covenant giving by individuals who foremost have a relationship with God and by grace, understands the principle behind it. It is possible for someone to love God deeply but just happen not to accept tithing. No amount of argument can make anyone to accept the principles of tithing. Jacob promised God he was going to give it. No one told him to do so. Jacob never said God asked him for it but probably he learnt about tithing from his own father . In almost 40 years of my work experience I have found out how it works. I can speak for myself. I don’t need to be persuaded by anyone about tithing whether to give it or not. I owe no obligation to anyone on this matter to disclose whether or not I am a tither, it is an issue between me and my God. Having said that, someone taught me about tithing and I’m grateful the person had the courage to do so. God has been very generous to me over the years in many ways. I understand that God’s favour to me is not even contingent on what I have done but because God just chose to be gracious to me. It is a favour I know too well that I don’t deserve. More than issues about money, my everyday desire is to please God by the help of the Holy Spirit. Actually, God does not need my money but many people around me do. My attitude towards money can reveal a lot about the content of my heart. Please, I hope you are not offended?

          • Peter willis

            Who cares, tithing doesnt save. Faith does. Its your relationship with God not mine,I’m not commanded to tithe,I have however been commanded to Love and help others, feed the hungry,house the homeless. God does not condemn us,Usually its christians quarreling amongst them selves, how better than others one is because you tithe? Huh what Bible do christians read? I do not need to pay God 10% plus a offering to earn any favour blessings or praise of men,, If you tithed directly to a homeless person each week? Feed orphans weekly etc etc not not to pay for a building,pastor ,lights,smoke screens etc etc ,entertainment,extra ministries like coffee
            shops ,blah blah my walk with Jesus iv learned to ignore peoples HAVE TO DO LIST in their walk with God. The only have to that I know God has asked of me is to Love Him and Love one another as my self. Its Grace my friends no matter where you are with God .All fall short of Gods Glory, you aswell no matter how much you tithe .feel free to tear me to pieces loving children of God !

          • John Abolarin

            No, no one needs to tear anybody down. It is a matter of explanation based on observations, and personal experience derived from many years of active study and application of the Word of God in a personal life. Perhaps you have read in the Bible also that faith without work is dead? What gives you the impression that those who tithe do not give to the homeless and support widows and orphans? How did you come to the conclusion that those who tithe do not obey the instruction that they should love God wholeheartedly and love others as themselves? Who told you to compare people on the basis of whether or not one pays tithe? I think it is also a generalised assumption to think that all Churches where there are faithful tithers the money thus generated by the Church goes to the ministers alone or spent on fanciful buildings and frivolous expenses. As I mentioned in my last post, not even all those who are genuine believers accept the principles of tithing. That being the case, what chance then does an unbeliever has of receiving sound teaching on tithing? This is not to suggest in anyway that you are not a believer it is just that at this point in time you have not yet accepted the teaching on tithing. It does not follow that you cannot receive it in the future if you are already a true believer or become one in the future. No one can earn any favour from God on the basis of good works alone but surely God rewards obedience, faithfulness and service. Tithing was widely practiced in the old testament as suggested by Malachi 3:8 – 12. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that those who gave tithe in the old testament failed in their duty to take care of widows and orphans. In the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ He did not say people should not give tithe. He only condemned those who failed in their duty to take care of their parents under the cloak that gave their money to the temple service and as such they had nothing left to give to their parents. We can talk about tithing from now till the cow comes home without coming to any reasonable agreement. The English people do say that “the taste of the pudding is in the eating thereof”. What God said is, “…try me now on this… if I will not open the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be enough room to receive it”. That is what God said. Just obey and see what happens in your life. You may find out that that will be the end of all argument on the issue as far as you are concerned. You may also find out that “God’s blessing” is much more than monetary rewards. Of course it is inclusive! In conclusion, as someone rightly pointed out on this forum, we should all go back to the Church and support the work of God in the Church and not look for excuses about faults in the Church. The Church is part of God’s wisdom and plan on missions to rescue the lost, to destroy the works of Satan and to disciple people. The Lord said, “I will build my Church and the gate of hell shall not prevail against it”. Let’s go out to support the Church and be part of the solution to the many problems in the Church. I hope you understand where I am coming from on this?

          • Ta

            Before anyone can please our Holy God, we must receive his Holy Spirit as it is written in John 14;16-18. Acts 2;38. This is what Jesus wants you to know and have Peter. The Holy Spirit from God teaches and guide us to do God’s will not by our feeling or what we think should happen. If God’s true believer wants to title to help the mission of God let them do what Jesus directs them to do, their reward is in heaven and those who don’t want to give the same will be given until them, all their talent will be lost or miss used. It’s all about discipleship, doing what Jesus call us to do, not to continue to live in our sins and rebellious against His word, like the Israel did in the Old Testament. Jesus is calling us into repentance and into a covenant with Him through the Holy Spirit which He pray to God to sent to those who wants it. It is a teacher and a guide and to have true worship with Jesus. John 4;24. We must ask Jesus for His Holy Spirit to live in us. We must surrender to Jesus and be obedience to His will not our will. Those receive His Holy Spirit and seeking Him, He will open your eyes and mind to the real fellowship with Him until his return for His chosen people who were obedience in receiving His gift of the Holy Spirit. It is hard to believe something you don ‘t have. If you truly believe the Word Of God than you will believe in the Books of the Bible and the Book of Acts. Jesus was the living sacrifice to redeem man back to Him and to fulfill the the promise He gave to Israel and redeem man from their sins, which Adam sin. We are not perfect but God’s grace and mercy to His people is abundant. Lets receive His gift to man Acts 2;38 and than seek Him about how we can financially help in spreading the word of God all over the world, in mission field, etc. We live in a world now that it takes money to paid for mission work. We have to let God guide us to the ministry He want us to work in and is truly called by Him. If we do our parts as Jesus disciples than let Jesus deal with the wick ministry and people, they are not getting away. If we are struggling, let fast to help someone in more need, or help in the church, cut the grass, pick up trash along the road to your church and community and watch
            God turn your situation around and cancel outstanding debts we owe. He will show His people favor with man. Faith moves God’s heart and obedience to His word. Acts 19;1-6. Hebrew 4;12 believing in God’s Word, Roman 10;14 calling on God, Roman 1;16 not being ashamed of the word, Psalm 119;130 God’s word gives light and understanding to the simply. Remember our flesh will make up any excuse why we should not do God’s will because like the Israelite, we call God only when we face lost, tragic, or lukewarm living, one foot in the world and one foot in the world Revelation 3;14-22. Roman 8:11 His spirit dwell in you, 2 Timothy 1:14 God Holy Spirit dwelling in you. So Instead of us fussing our paying tithes we need to focus on having what Jesus said we need to have to return back with Him when he return. Your soul is more important now if you don’t have Jesus spirit in you. God breathed into Adam’s nostrils he became a living soul so He can spiritual change us to His chosen people to serve and worship only Him. I will not hear from you Peter but I pray that Jesus will open your eyes from being a debtor against His chosen people and be a Disciple of His word. Love you in Jesus Name my brothers and sister who will read this message.

          • John Abolarin

            You seem to suggest that people who pay tithe love others less and turn blind eyes to the poor. Tear you to pieces? Why is that? Look my brother, this is not a theological debate or intellectual argument. It is about faith, commitment, level of grace, and depth of relationship with God. It is also about experience and exposure. God said, “Try me”. The end of all arguments over this is to try God and see.

          • nissa

            I agree….but u r not catching all of what u just said.. u say u feed homeless n cloth them ,right? well does that not cost money eventhough it’s coming from ur heart that is like God’s? that’s all I’m saying….unfortunately in our world ,in this age EVERYTHING has a price! NOT what God wants of us. .He is very specific in that as He states….” Of free will”! I feel that means f the r us ALL to make a heart felt decision to do what is right ….in the heart of God Himself!

          • Patricia Anne Norlingpaddis

            well said Peter..! My heart exactly!!

          • jozie

            John, you must throw off the fallacies you’ve been taught by greedy preachers who are nothing more then wolves in sheeps clothing.
            The tithe is an OT Law, 1 of 613. If we are to honor 1 we are to honor them all. Ask a pastor why they insist on just the tithe law and not all 600+ laws God gave to his covenant people.
            The tithe was instituted by GOD for his chosen people, the Israelites.
            The tithe is has very specific uses and was only ever FOOD not MONEY !
            God instructed his chosen on how to handle the tithe, who would benefit from it and that it was to be eaten before the Lord. Do pastors today eat the tithe bf the Lord? No, they live lavishly off the backs off their own flock. They are liars and deceivers.
            The tithe was not for preachers or christians, it was for the Levite priests and the people of Israel, the Jews and it was also to be brought to Jerusalem for the celebration held there, it was a covenant arrangement.
            Any man today teaching tithe law keeping is a false teacher !
            Go and study the OT scriptures and the covenant God made with
            For shame !

          • John Abolarin

            Thanks, but I do not see it that way. I’m aware that there are many charlatans who parade themselves about as ministers of God but who are not. Nonetheless, I also know that there are many other genuine men and women of God out there. When I drop my offerings in the Church I don’t look back over my shoulders to see what happens to it. It is a ‘burnt sacrifice’. My offering is part of my worship. Once I drop it in the offering bowl my obligation ends. I trust God to be able to hold accountable those who thereafter handle the money. In fact, I do not loose sleep over any offering that I hand over after I have done it

          • Patricia Anne Norlingpaddis

            Well said Jozie. ! I totally agree!

          • DJ Jay

            I agree totally I was poor when i started tithing barely making ends meet and look at God he honored the tithe and now I’m truly blessed

          • 12tonet45

            The Old Testament spoke of a 10% rule, but the New Testament is silent. Faith in our Lord and Savior; Jesus Christ and to love our neighbor, enemy, and alien is stressed in the New Testament. Certainly the gospels speak of not judging or condemning others, to forgive, and freely give to others is of upmost importance because the measure we do so, will be measured by Him. There is no rule about giving a particular amount, but to give to another in need is suppose to be done without being selfish or subjective. It’s disappointing to read comments where the writer becomes angry and personal. It is possible for a person to believe he/she is not growing spiritually at church or feel there is a lack of spirituality among its members. It is not wise to immediately condemn or judge the other person. That’s my humble opinion.

          • DJ Jay

            I agree

          • Noel

            Tithing is an immense burden and stress to single parents, abandoned by their spouses, and who are raising their dependent children alone. When you are hungry, and without a secure shelter over your head, it is a horrible pressure, and a horrible guilt.

          • John Abolarin

            From a human point of view you are right. Any service that is done involuntarily would naturally be burdensome. When a man truly falls in love with a woman there is no telling what he can do for a newly found love. When the motivation is borne out of love and desire for service, people can for example walk a thousand mile from Europe to Jerusalem under inclement conditions just for the desire to do it. Others can go to places to preach the gospel even when they know they may not return alive. Precisely, that was what Jesus did for us. He gave His life for us so that we can live. We cannot give more than what Jesus already gave us. You seem to care about poor single parents. There is one very poor single parent I read about in the bible. She wanted to cook for her son and herself their last meal and thereafter there was no hope of any more food coming their way. Then a prophet who I do not envy his position came on the scene and asked for a share out of that meal. From a human point of view that prophet would have been condemned as a heartless man. The poor single mother was willing to share her last meal with a stranger and then a miracle followed. If you cannot give when you are poor you are most unlikely going to give even if you have plenty. I have found out that those who are willing to give the little they have (not under compulsion) always come back smiling with a testimony to share

          • Patricia Anne Norlingpaddis

            So true , Noel xxxxx

          • Darrell Davis

            Everybody seems to forget the second part of New Testament Giving – When people brought their gifts to the church “And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need”. How many times are we supposed to lay our gifts at the “disciples” feet and have them turn their backs when we are in need? The church is always complaining about us not giving when they refuse to hold up their end of the deal.

          • Judy007

            Sorry my ignorance about you here, have you approached your family? I help and give the the person standing in front of me at any given time, whom G-d sent for me to help. G-d never demanded a communist system. In fact no system, since we are not of this world, only in it.

          • Patricia Anne Norlingpaddis

            BINGO!!!! Darrell!

          • Doug Tozier

            Tell that to someone who can’t even pay their bills.

          • Grace Cohen

            Tithing of time and talents skills and gifts are worthy tithe. tithe*
            God loves a CHEER-filled giver.*

          • Ty Str

            But when did the Lord ever accept anything as a tithe that was different than animals and crops??? Why must we become children in our understanding? Let’s just stick with what the Bible says and not put additional meaning into it

          • Judy007

            Such are no so abundant upon the earth that there is just no money to go around anymore. Corruption from Satan’s system has just about cleaned it out. That sentence of yours I see hundreds of times in all forums.

          • Doug Tozier

            There is plenty of money, it is just in the wrong hands. There is also opportunity to change ones financial future, and it is not god who makes that happen. The problem is that as a society we have been taught a philosophy based on lack of abundance and “the haves vs. the have nots.” It doesn’t have to be that way. I have been able to see my situation much more clearly since I left religion than I ever did with any of the Pastors, teachers, and advisers I had in my life as a believer. I was always taught to spend less (not like I had much to spend) rather than to learn how to make more. There really is a failure in the American educational and religious systems when it comes to money. NO!! God will not provide! We must provide for ourselves.

          • Judy007

            the money DOES have ceasar’s head on it. We were born with nothing but we live by grace – isn’t it? So governments print dollars or whatever other fiat denominations, we need our Father for our to give the increase for our living in HIS way. The church as you see it inthe building with a bell tower or not, consists of people such as yourself, hapless people who sit with lots and lots of worries. Here in South Africa we have dwindled to just praying for people’s safety when they’re on the road, or not at home, or have to come home and we have to lock all the gates outside on the electrical fences and inside all our passages. Then we say thank you Father, today was a GOOD day. Most of us now no longer have the means for any extravagance, our increase is in the safety of our children, parents, husbands wives. So sorry, I know you have so many needs. It’s time for us who are not of the earth, to come out of her, which is not of G-d.

          • Doug Tozier

            Judy, I think you missed my point, and where I am coming from. The church is an organization of people. It reflects their desires. Regardless of whether it is America or South Africa, if God were really a protector of his “chosen” people, then there would be no fear, no need to lock doors, no want for the necessities of life. While every society is different, there are similarities; I must pay for food, clothing, and shelter; I assume you do as well. We must stay alive, because no one can see beyond the grave- is there a life on the other side? No one has seen that. There are many stories, both Christian and hundreds of other traditions; none of them agree on what it is. We only know of this life and this dimension. If you are depending on an invisible being, then prove your trust is valid by waiting for food and clothing to come to you miraculously, and leave your doors open. Otherwise, your vain claims are meaningless. God would not need your money or your prayers because he “already knows what you need before you ask.”

          • Doug Tozier

            P.S. I left church years ago to be one with the god of nature.

          • Noel

            True that!

          • Ronald W Robey

            Tithes were never from firstfruits. Not sure where you heard it was, but wherever you got it from was wrong.

          • Albert Estrada

            Biblical brother, it there !!!

          • Ronald W Robey

            Actually Brother, it is not there. Notice the following two verses…

            Nehemiah 10:37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
            Nehemiah 10:38 And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

            Notice the firstfruites were taken by the children of Israel to the House of God and into the chambers of the storehouse. But the tithes, they took to the Levites. The Levites, in turn, would take a tithe of the tithe to the House of God into the chambers of the storehouse.

            Tithes and firstfruits were not the same… they were taken to two different places. Also, the Old Testament says tithes were given at the end of the harvest, while the firstfruits were from the beginning of the harvest.

            Please study this out.

          • michele

            You’re on point.. The Levitical Priests were the ONLY ones who collected the “tithe’.. but these pimiping pastors say we’re all High Priest… This is false.. The pastor is not a Levite Priest and has no authority to take the tithe.

          • Sonny Johnson

            If you’re in a church where the pastor takes the tithe, you had best run right out of that church. My Bible says bring the tithe into His store House.

          • penny

            lol.. These modern day con artist pimpsters equate their churches to the storehouse. That too is a lie and false doctrine..First, the word “church” isn’t in the old testament, so to equate a “storehouse” to a church is incorrect. This is just a play on words and a method of deception to trick sheeple into giving. Second, during Old Testament times, a storehouse was just that, a storehouse. It was used to “store” grains, meats, produce, wool, etc…it was NOT a place to take money,….Monetary offerings, if their was such a thing, was given to the Levitical Priests from the TRIBE of LEVI and they took it to the TEMPLE Priest.

          • Mark Vilen

            Tithing is not a New Covenant thing … We don’t live under laws, we give out of grace, whether it’s money, our time, etc.

          • Ronald W Robey

            Sorry Albert, but it is not Biblical at all.

            Nehemiah 10:37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
            Nehemiah 10:38 And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

            The children of Israel took the firstfruits to the House of God, into the chambers. But the tithes, they took to the Levites. The Levites, in turn, would take a tithe of the tithe to the House of God, into the chambers.

            It is quite clear that the two, firstfruits and tithes could not have been the same thing. One went one place, the other went to another place.

            Also, firstfruits were nothing more than a basket or handful of fruit from the beginning of the harvest. Tithes were always paid at the end of the harvest.

          • Ronald W Robey

            Nehemiah 10:37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
            Nehemiah 10:38 And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

            These two verses alone prove that tithes and firstfruits were not the same. They reveal that the children of Israel took firstfruits to the House of God, while the tithes they took elsewhere.

            One might feebly attempt to say that the Levites were at the Hosue of God to receive the tithes from the children of Israel, but the text proves they could not have been. How could they “bring the tithe of the tithe to the House of God” if they were already at the House of God? LoL The argument fails in light of the clear text of the Bible.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            WOW! The author was right on the money, wasn’t he? This entire string of replies and arguments about first fruits, increases, and harvest tithes are EXACTLY the point Pavlovitz was making. You’re arguing the minutia! Do you honestly think that god gives a running rabbit’s rear axle when or what you give as long as you’re doing your best? If you are supporting your family and living a good and honest life, and giving what you can to support the church, then I doubt it matters. Perhaps you all are the problem… ya think?

          • Ronald W Robey

            Hi alethea, I know God doesn’t care what amount we give. He is a God of multiplication. He took a lunch for one small lad and fed 5,000 with it.

            The fact is, if people would just read their Bibles, they might discover that God’s commanded tithes were never of one’s money. And they were never commanded for, carried to, collected in, or controlled by the New Testament Church. The commanded tithes were for the children of Israel only, and then only once they crossed the Jordan and entered into the promised land. Leviticus 27:30133; Deuteronomy 12:1-11; Hebrews 7:5-8

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Who cares? It was stated that a woman’s perspective was different and that her needs weren’t being met. That the church expects so much more from a woman (I have my own story to tell about that). This is the BIG stuff that others are ignoring and so are losing many in their congregations. Pavlovitz’s point was proven by those who posted here.

          • Ronald W Robey

            Oh, I agree. The Church is not listening. Many are leaving for the very reasons Pastor Pavlovitz has written. Sometimes, it is because of a spirit of rebellion, hating all that has to do with God. Other times, it is because the leadership, those who should have a heart of compassion, do not show the heart of compassion to those who need it.

            And so, those who need to feel loved and cared for, often return to the world where they at least had seeming friends.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I was the organist, pianist and soloist at my church by the age of 12. I taught Sunday School when I was 15 and was VERY active in church activities, etc. I expressed to our pastor that I wanted to go to seminary after high school and was promptly told that god didn’t want women to spread the word – that’s was the man’s job. I was told that god had a special place for women in this world and I was doing a great job of it and to stay where I belonged. Within 2 years, I left the church and never went back to it or any other ‘house of worship’. Ain’t agonna happen now, either.

          • Ronald W Robey

            While I am not much on seminaries these days (for either man or woman) because the majority that I’ve researched have became very liberal in their doctrines, that pastor was wrong. There is nothing wrong with a woman getting a religious education.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Well this was WAY back. Here are the passages to which I was referred.
            I Corinthians 14:34
            I Timothy 2:9
            I Timothy 2:11
            I had already read those verses many times, and I saw no connection to the church until the pastor brought it up. After studying it more, I asked him, “If god, who could have chosen to give his son to the world by ANY means, chose to have a woman carry Jesus in her womb for 9 months and raise him with her instruction and guidance, why would god think a woman was unworthy to spread the word from the pulpit?” He had no answer. I saw it for what is was… and still is. As the sharks say… “I’m out.”

          • Ronald W Robey

            Yeah, i know the passages well.

            Pastors take them out of context to teach wrong doctrine.

            Ome only need flip to the 1 Corinthians 11 to prove the pastors wrong. Says a woman can prophesy if her head is covered. To prophecy means to bring forth the Word. A woman can indeed bring the Word. I have heard many a woman butcher the Word, but I have also heard many shuck out the corn when preaching as well.

            And, in the book of Acts, we have the four virgin daughters of Phillip prophesying.

            Women who are educated in the proper way to minister can be just as effective at preaching the Word as any man… if they are Spirit led.

          • Art Dickinson

            Someone earlier in this thread suggested that the discussion would descend into bickering about irrelevant technicalities, and it did!
            I have never felt so close to my creator as when I was in the midst of a desert or forest, deep in meditation, and usually alone. That’s why I am not an attendee at formal services, too many hypocrites.

          • John Abolarin

            Sorry about that Art Dickinson. You see, those ‘irrelevant technicalities’ are the main issues for some people who left the church. It is sad that the church may not be what we hope it should be but with its many problems there are no alternatives to the Church. We should stay back to put the wrong right. Staying in the desert occasionally to enjoy a deep meditation is perfectly okay because Jesus did the same thing but He went back to the temple to challenge orthodoxy. The leaders engineered His death for his effort. We should stay put to right wrong. It could take time. With genuine interest, intention, love, understanding and patient we can get there

          • Savannah Nash

            Art really needs to go back to the forest and let us discuss without his insight

          • And then you wonder why believers leave the building. smh

          • John Abolarin

            Ronald, you are absolutely correct!

          • Darrell

            Every believer can prophesy that does not mean he or she is a prophet.

          • Darrell

            There is a difference in prophesying and holding the office of a prophet.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            And, there is someone who says he/she is a prophet? Please, point out that prophet.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            And, your point is?

          • Thomas Everroad

            Every child can tell the truth but that doesn’t make them honest.
            Every fortune teller can say some stuff is going to happen. Doesn’t make them a prophet either. Having grown up a child of a minister who traveled and played music (sort of like the Partridge family) I have heard literally thousands of “prophecies” and many of them were about me in particular. Guess what. Not one has come to pass
            According to several of these “prophecies” I was to do great works for god in my life and be his voice . Guess what….I am an atheist now and was then too. I spend every waking moment trying to save people from religion. Your gods religion. I will not rest until christianity is shelved in the same place as voodoo and people realize that there is not one true god but thousands of imaginary gods . If you don’t think christianity will die out just research how many religions that millions and millions of people used to worship and have now been all but forgotten.
            “Religion was born when the first con man met the first fool”
            -Mark Twain-

          • lana broussard

            What is it to u what we believe. There is absolutely no way you could ever convince me god is not real…i know without a shadow of a doubt he is absolutely real. I know he is real more than I know my parents were real. And if u put a gun to my head right now and gave me a choice…live or die. Say u aren’t sure if he is real. I would die knowing that I’m on my way home

          • Brandon Brasseau

            To Thomas Everroad…..What a poor pitiful place for
            you to be. To be your own god must be hard work. What
            happened to you or what did you see that made you so
            cynical? Just because people have not lived up to your
            lofty expectations does not mean that God does not
            exist. We’ve all been hurt in some way or another…sometimes
            in church and sometimes elsewhere. But God is always
            here. When you are long gone, HE’LL STILL BE HERE>. He does not force Himself on anyone. You don’t sense His presense because He won’t intrude on your space, so to speak.You have pushed Him away and decided because you
            faced uncomfortable things or even mistreatment, that you
            don’t need Him therefore just because you wish Him away,
            He just disappears, in your mind. And that statement about
            religion…I totally agree with what Mr Twain said that religion
            is foolish. But Jesus didn’t come to bring us a religion/He
            came to have a relationship with us. God hates religion
            more than we do. Jesus
            said the greatest commandment of all is to love God with
            all our hearts and love our neighbor as ourselves. That
            shows that He knows that if we fulfill those two commandments
            we will be fulfilling the first 10 completely. If we love people
            and God we will not steal someones money, we will not
            murder people, we will not have affairs with their spouses.
            The bible says the Lord calls foolish those who don’t
            believe in Him. You’d better watch out whose side you
            are on. Just because there were people you couldn’t
            trust doesn’t make GOD untrustworthy! Nor does it make
            Him nonexistent.

          • Ronnie Tanner

            Thomas, you are right that “Christianity” needs to be shelved, specifically the Christianity which men have contrived and thought up. However, you say you will not rest until “people realize that there is not one true god but thousands of imaginary gods”. How do you know this to be true? Is that not just another religion you are preaching? Aren’t you just an atheistic evangelist at heart? Atheism is just another religion that declares the “no god” to be God. Do you know what you are talking about or is this just your imagination? What you learned growing up was nothing but vain religion. I learned it to. It’s the most horrid of experiences. It’s called Mystery Babylon, and it’s where your parents lived and raised you. I’d say you can be thankful you came to realize that. However, don’t stop there. Do know there is One True God and His Name is Jesus Christ. He isn’t found in men’s churches but by those who earnestly seek Him and turn from their sins with whatever power they’ve been granted. You aren’t innocent and you aren’t free, and as long as you avoid that reality it will only get worse.

            Take a read here.. this is the “Christianity” you are talking about:

          • Carol Null

            You are equating religion and Christianity together….this is false and deception reasoning….religion is always based on man’s interpretation or how he perceives the world around him. Christianity is about a relationship between the Creator and the created, to restore all things back to its original state before sin entered in. Proverbs 14:1 ( A fool says in his heart ( there is no God) I would dare to suggest the even the late Mark Twain can now say without the slightest hesitation…. there is a God, and He reigns over the affairs of men. The Church has committed many gross sins and errors over her long history. but within the body of believers there are still a few who seek God and wish to make disciples for His name sake….if you have been injured in a church setting we ask your forgiveness, and we pray God will open our hearts to receive you in love, and His grace, and that you would give us another chance to undo the harm you experienced while in our midst ….I will pray that God will bring that special person into your life…that you might taste and see how great is the Father’s love…..God bless all of you

          • Savannah Nash

            God will ALWAYS have a remnant, they tried to kill off Israel, it still stands, it will stand and endure until the end…

          • Dora monroe

            I’m really unhappy in my church. People walk all thru the service speak out. One brother must be seen and heard instruction becomes angry. The church only opens on Sunday. I really.must leave for own spiritual well being.

          • Ronnie Tanner

            You are right, Dora, if you want to live, you must leave the works of men.


          • Darrell

            Your opinion does not mean that it is truth. You have not given proof that he is wrong only your opinion.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Darrell, it is up to the person who made the assertion to provide proof, not the listener or the person who disagrees.

            Now, try to follow this… Words, stories, interpretations, verses in books, etc. are not true because that same book SAYS it’s true. That’s like saying, ‘I am Queen because I SAY I’m Queen and you’d better believe everything I say or I’ll see that you are horribly punished!’

          • amy

            God doesn’t but Paul does. That is who we need to question. Why does Paul SO drastically differ from the words of Christ?
            Be thankful you didn’t go…it would have led you so far from the capital T; truth.

          • Michael Wall

            I think you would probably prove his point (if he had one) by allowing his words to deter you from fellowship and/or ministry. I can certainly understand you leaving that church, but you seem to have left all churches. Do you think that pastors are the only ones who can be hyper critical? Perhaps you need to mature before you take up ministry ..

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Michael, I’ve left all churches of any religion. I have read, studied, and researched nearly every doctrine you don’t even know exists. The reason? It fascinates me. Religion has influenced cultures and societies for thousands of years, and vice versa. It is internally diverse and is constantly changing and redefining itself. And, there is absolutely no empirical, or even compelling, evidence that any one of the thousands of dogmas has any truth as to the existence of a god/goddess, yet humans all over the world will aver that only they have the true religion. At best, religions are invented by humans and/or representative of historical fiction. They are passed down according to the beliefs of the parents and the country in which one was born. Born in India? You’d probably follow Brahma and Shiva. Yet, some people cling to those faiths and attempt to elbow their way into governments, schools, personal lives and the lives of our children. The two worst offenders in this respect are Christianity and certain factions of Islam.

            I’m well over 60 years old and have been a student of religion and the psychology behind it now for over 45 years. No, pastors are not the only hyper-critical beings – definitely not. However, there are those critical people who suggest that others mature before they know a thing about that person.

          • Judy007

            what you give actually is between you and G-d ONLY. I don’t understand the arguing. We ALL know the scripture and listen to His work through the Holy SPirit. What is it to any of you reprimanding strangers.

          • John Abolarin

            Alethea I’m sorry that happened to you. Pastors do have a lot of influence for good and sadly some times not so good. Please you may wish to reconsider your stand now that you understand that the reason you went to the Church was not because of the pastor but for God and because you were willing to obey God’s instructions that you should be in fellowship with other believers. It’s possible that the pastor you have in mind has changed his position from what it was and it’s possible that he may not even remember your case. Endurance is a test of our allegiance and commitment to God not to men

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Nope. I’m out. Studied and studied and read and read and I can find no sense of the ‘instructions’ in that black book, or how people have decided to interpret them. A church and religion (not faith) are the biggest money making schemes ever foisted on a believing people.

            Oh, he changed his mind all right. That pastor is dead. And, absolutely NONE of the other pastors/priests with whom I have spoken are any better. I think people have decided to model god after themselves rather than the other way around as is stated in Genesis.

            You can save your breath, John.

          • Michael A. Albert

            I won’t defend what was said to you way back when, Alethea, but what you need to reconsider is what Y’shua/Jesus said in John 3 and your eternal destination! Nothing else matters, Alethea, nothing! In spite of what this article states, there are tons of good churches out there where the people love God and would welcome you. But if your mind is made up about stepping into a church, as you say it is, then it still comes back to John 3. The Bible is the final authority, not man and what he may say. All you need is “that black book” a good set of knees and the desire to cry out to God to open your eyes to what His Word says.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Thank you for your concern Michael. I know plenty about what is said in that black book (I own 6 different versions, and I’ve read all versions out there) and it’s all a matter of interpretation.

            I won’t, and don’t care to, pressure you to see it my way, but it appears that multitudes feel it necessary to advise me on what I ‘need’ and ‘should do’ and what to ‘believe’ and what ‘church to find’. From just my first two posts, which were sticking to the subject, I was PM’d by quite a number of people, including JW, LDS, CC, and numerous denominations of Protestants. Each one told me that THEY knew the truth, THEY were the right church, all the others weren’t true Christians and yadayadayada. People will attend a church where the pastor says what they want to hear and they will find a different one if the pastor’s interpretation doesn’t suit them. Here is a portion of my reply to one person bent on saving me to THEIR particular flavor of Christianity….

            “I’ve talked with Mormons, Buddhists, Shintoists, Wiccans, Pagans, B’nai B’riths, Zoroastrians (yes there such people),
            Catholics, Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, JWs and all other flavors of the Christian church – the pastors, the priests and members of the faith. The Muslims would not speak with me – I’m a woman.

            I’ve read every version, book, chapter, verse, and line in it. I’ve read the Book of Mormon, The Zen of Tao and the Quran. In addition, I’ve read the ancient Hebrew and Greek original writings, translated to English of course. I’ve talked with theologians, atheists, agnostics and professors. I’ve spoken and listened at length to my AmerInd friends and elders. I’ve read nearly everything I can get my hands on about
            religions of all types. I can quote the bible with the best of them, but that’s not the point. I didn’t leave because the pastor discouraged me, I left after two years of intense study (and I mean intense) of the bible and Christianity.

            And, after a lifetime of studying and understanding many of the over hundreds and hundreds of religions in this world, the most belligerent, critical, biased, condemning and violent of them are… the Christians and each one, to a man, each flavor tried to ‘save’ me because THEY are ‘the only church that knows and preaches the truth’! They can’t decide whether a person should be baptized forward or backward, or whether a woman should wear pants and/or makeup, or cut their hair, what underwear to choose, tithe or not tithe, speak in tongues, play with snakes and on and on.

            The kindest, most generous, gracious, loving, supportive, understanding and charitable people? The Wiccans, Pagans,
            Buddhists, Jewish, AmerInds, atheists and agnostics. They have just as much, if not more, morality than Christians.”

            I’ve been to churches, temples and even a monastery. What matters is my relationship with my creator.

          • Thomas Everroad

            You know it’s odd but Not one person has PM’d me to discuss anything I have posted. I wonder why that is?

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I don’t have the foggiest idea, Thomas. The first who contacted me was a JW asking if I’d ever talked with one!
            Perhaps it is because you’re more eloquent than I, or that people are afraid to engage you because you know far more than some of us having been a PK. ??

          • Thomas Everroad

            I think it has more to do with the fact that they are afraid to have their faith shaken. People need to feel a sense that they will never die but live on forever. Fear of ones own mortality is the biggest thing religion has going for it.

          • PaulBCohen .

            There is religion, Thomas, and there is the Truth. Jesus Christ is the Truth, not a religion. With religion you get to keep your life, but with Jesus Christ, you will lose it. Then death (not just physical, but the loss of all things in this life) no longer threatens you because you are crucified with Him and truly free. “Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed” (John 8:36 MKJV). More on His ways at .

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            And, where do you find the ‘truth’, Paul? The book that SAYS it’s true? The Koran says it’s true, as well.

          • PaulBCohen .

            Jesus Christ is the Truth, Alethea. He is alive, not the Bible, although He inspired it. I only know this because He revealed Himself to me, and I recognized His voice in the Bible. Without Him, all are dead in their sins and unbelief. I was certainly there and He, not a book, brought me out of death and hell.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I was terminally ill with cancer, Paul. I was not and am not dead. Far from it. People will believe whatever gives them the strength and the fortitude to fight. If that was ‘His’ voice for you… cool! It was a Hindu hearing the voice of Lakshmi that gave him the will to fight. It was the power of Quan Yin who saved the Buddhist from death. Do you not see that you BELIEVE it was your god who saved you? But, your god is not the only ‘saving’ or ‘healing’ god? The bible is not the only ‘saving’ or ‘healing’ literature that exists? You weren’t in ‘hell’, Paul. You were sick and were afraid that you would be eternally punished in some imaginary ‘lake of fire’ for any misstep you had ever taken. You have absolutely no idea about the truth, Paul. Neither do I or anyone else living on this earth.

          • PaulBCohen .

            Did you read my story, Alethea? Please do –, You’ll see I wasn’t scared of eternal punishment, something I wasn’t taught and didn’t believe, but was in great turmoil because of the wrong turn I took. I asked Jesus Christ to settle the matter for me and He did. You can’t argue with that, at least not successfully. You need to carefully consider what you’re hearing because you can’t rightly judge what you don’t listen to.

            “Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”
            (John 8:31-32 MKJV).

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Yes, I read it. And, that is what I believe it is…. a story. I’ve listened to nearly everything anyone has had to say about their faith, and their amazing experiences, and I believe that no one knows the truth about the supernatural. I don’t believe that’s possible. People in other lands, ask THEIR gods to settle the matter and believe that those gods do. THAT is true. Happens all the time. People of Christianity have had near death experiences and see angels, their loved ones, Jesus and heaven. People of Hinduism have had near death experiences, too. And, they see Lakshmi, Ganesha, Shiva, even Brahman. It’s all a matter of what they believe, how they’ve been raised, what they’ve been told.

            Any verses in any religious books can be quoted to support ones personal beliefs – the is MY belief.

          • PaulBCohen .

            If one can’t know the truth about the supernatural, how do you know that your thoughts about the supernatural are true? How can you judge my supernatural experience, or a Hindus’? By your own confession, you can’t definitively say that what I’ve experienced with God isn’t so.

            I know and declare that one can know the Truth, because I know Him. And by Him I can judge the experience of another. It’s not hard or an impressive feat. It’s just a matter of having spiritual eyes to see, which God gives us through Christ. He is the Mediator between God and man, bringing us into the Kingdom of Heaven, His spiritual dwelling place of light and life.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I have not said that my thoughts are true. I have always said that this is what I believe.

            I judged you? hmmm, Here is what you said, “And by Him I can judge the experience of another.” That’s a smoking gun if there ever was one!

            Believe what you wish to believe – that’s hunky dorey – and allow me to do same.

          • RN Nutrition
          • PaulBCohen .

            Of course hell is real, RN. You’re in it right now, a place of darkness without understanding. You have religion, not reality.

            You need to get your own oil. See the link I just gave you to our site –, and hear what the Lord says on this matter that you haven’t yet heard.

            Gotquestions can’t give you the oil of God’s truth because they don’t have it themselves. They have some correct knowledge, but nothing from the Tree of Life. See

          • Thomas Everroad

            You are assuming that a book written by fallible humans more than 300 hundred years AFTER this imaginary christ even was to have existed is true. There is no truth in this book. It is so full of contradictions that even the scholars can’t agree on which of the more than 25 versions in existence to trust. so if you want to debate stop using that black book. Let me give you an example of just how ridicules your faith is. Here we have a god who for the first few thousand years had no problem whatsoever (allegedly) performing piles of miracles such 10 plagues on the Egyptians, parted the red sea ( which poses physical challenges in and of itself such as the feet thick muck that covers the ocean floor) , somehow got a million people across it, spent 40 years making a trip that could be done in a few weeks) to the promised land where god instructed them to murder many tribes along the way manna fed them, a pillar of fire at night guided them etc… ALL these miracles were shown to them yet they still fashioned a golden calf the result of which was that god ordered aaron to murder half of the tribe and then later for some reason decided to send his “son” to be slaughtered to wash our sins away but refuses to show himself ever again. YET if you are a thinking person and find all this silly stuff impossible to believe , this same forgiving, loving god will torture you for eternity.
            Then theres the whole “selective” acceptance of scripture in your daily life. Jesus was a communist saying “if someone asks you for money give it to them. If they ask for a loan do it yet He said” Forsake your family, give all you have to the poor and follow me” (paraphrasing of course) which I know that almost no so called christian has ever done.
            There is absolutely no truth in a book that claims the entire universe was created in 6 days ( god was pooped and had to rest on the 7th) when there is undeniable evidence to the contrary.
            You people teach blind faith , child torture and exclusion changing the “interpretation” to suit your own agenda un-apologetically while at the same time claiming to be a loving, accepting club.
            There is no morality in that book that is not commonplace to everyone else who doesn’t believe in it and furthermore you claim that billions of the humans god supposedly created are going to hell simply because they are muslim, buddhist, etc.
            Not one single thing in that book is true. However it has been sold to the uneducated masses for centuries. I weep for the blind masses that have bought this lie. Your life would be so much more fulfilled if you realized that there is no boogie man in the sky who is so fickle and murderous . Personally I would never want to spend eternity with such a god who is subject to destroy you for having an independent thought.
            Death does not scare me. You know why? Because I’ll be dead and gone and won’t even know it.
            Please stop telling people you know what is going on when clearly you do not and for pete’s sake don’t terrorize children with fables of hell fire. That is the most evil thing you could do to a young impressionable mind.

          • PaulBCohen .

            Thomas, “eternal torment” is a lie from Hell. Why do you lie about us, saying we promote such blasphemy? And what sins do you love so much that you feel compelled to impugn your Creator and Savior with lies? The evil you ascribe to Him is a reflection of what’s inside you. You’re being eaten up by your own sins and corruption. Bitter and unrepentant, you lash out at Him by setting yourself on fire in front of a crowd. How smart is that? Read

          • RN Nutrition

            a lie from Hell? Please don’t purport to know Scripture with this comment.

          • PaulBCohen .

            I don’t purport – I supply. Read liberally from our website, RN, and get yourself the nutrition of the Scriptures. Here’s the section about God’s declared intention and work of salvation in Christ:

          • kas

            Paul, how do you know god is a HIM? Did He tell you that? If he did then you are hearing voices in your head and need a Psychiatrist. If you just read it in the book then you are just a misogynistic douche.

          • PaulBCohen .

            So I hate women because God came in the flesh as a man? That doesn’t make sense, Kas. You’re the one with a hate problem, and it’s killing you.

          • Jody Pussycat

            It’s the biggest marketing scam on Earth created to control people and dominate them into keeping only a small percentage of those in power there AND in turn: wealthy. Most have been indoctrinated by our parents as a young age when we needed food, shelter, comfort to be provided… so this great faith many have (to me) just goes back to wanting to feel that love as a child. Remember how guilty you gelt when younger and lied to your parents for the first time? Now compare that feeling to the guilt you might experience if you start to lost faith in the existence of a higher power.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I think you’re being challenged on here, Thomas. They eventually do, don’t they?

          • PaulBCohen .

            You’re so right in this last sentence, Alethea. I have found our Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ, to be faithful in providing what we need. As a young man of 23 moved to Israel, and in the middle of the Negev desert, He sent someone to speak to me about His will for my life and the path I needed to walk on. He also gave me the grace to obey. What a God! Please read my story,, and help yourself to the bountiful good food He’s given us at this site.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            No thanks, Paul. I’ve read more books about the ‘truth’ than you probably have or even know about.

            NO ONE – not you, me, Pat Robertson, any pastor, theologian, professor, roadside evangelist, street corner bible thumper, etc. KNOWS the truth. We only know what we believe to be true. To think that we actually KNOW what’s going on, is pure arrogance.

            Help yourself to the peace the Buddha has given us!

            p.s. Do you realize that you say you’ve seen someone who spoke to you about your path, but others in similar situations, are told what goddess, or Ganesha, or Mithra, or Zoroaster wants them to do? It’s a matter of preconceived ideas of what is real, correct and desirable.

          • PaulBCohen .

            Of course we can know the truth, Alethea, we were created by Him and made in His image! And it was Him, Jesus Christ, Who answered me, not Ganesha or Mithra or Zoroaster or Buddha. It was no “preconceived idea of what is real, correct and desirable” that gave me life and understanding. It was those things that had left me dead and without hope. The proof of Jesus Christ is that He raises the dead, as with me.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Sorry, Paul. But, I believe that man has attempted to make god in HIS image…. give god a gender, decide that god looks like a Anglo-Saxon, interpret ‘god’s’ words (sorry, I’m smarter than that) as they WISH them to be. If you believe it, Paul – then good on you. But, that you were inspired is no proof… far from it. You weren’t answered by Zoroaster because you didn’t KNOW about Zoroaster. God is who you want god to be. Jesus is he who didn’t come back during the apostle’s time as he said he would. Go for it, Paul. But, don’t expect everyone else to buy your specific brand of supernatural mythology. You can profess all you wish that you KNOW the truth, but if you were honest, you would KNOW that it is your ‘ belief’. Hey, why don’t you ask JC to regrow the arm of a child who suffered a tractor accident? hmmmm.

          • PaulBCohen .

            Your theory doesn’t hold up here, Alethea. You say I made God in my image, basically conjuring Him up using terms and ideas I was familiar with.

            I was familiar with many so-called gods when the Lord called me. Why didn’t I hear from Allah or Krishna or Zeus, for examples? I had been searching and reading different books other than the Bible. So it wasn’t being exposed to things about Christ. In fact, it was unnatural for me to look to Him because as a Jew, confessing Christ would be denying my background and standing in life. It was the last thing I was looking to do. It was so remote from my mind, I didn’t even know I could do it!

            I also didn’t decide to believe in Christ. I simply asked God to make the truth known to me and He drew me to Himself and revealed His identity. He then answered me on many things, not just one, to this very day 37 years later and it hasn’t been my imagination. My imagination doesn’t control external things and events. Imagination doesn’t totally revolutionize one’s life, as mine was changed.

            And I have seen Him do the same with others. We have agreement because we have experienced the same Truth, without man’s intervention or imagination.

            I haven’t seen anyone else changed by any of the other gods as Christ changes, not even close. He is alive, Alethea, and I know Him. Because I have a relationship with Him, I don’t test His power as you suggest, but confer with Him about His will. That is the best and only way for all.

            You will eventually see how He works all things for good, including the child who lost his arm and all other disasters, which men, in their rebellion, have sown for. He promises.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            “He is alive, Alethea, and I know Him. Because I have a relationship with Him, I don’t test His power as you suggest, but confer with Him about His will. That is the best and only way for all.

            You will eventually see how He works all things for good, including the child wholost his arm and all other disasters, which men, in their rebellion, have sown for. He promises.”

            It is your BELIEF that, because of your relationship with him, that he is real. It is your BELIEF that the best and only way for ‘all’, is what YOU believe. (really?)

            Disasters are because people have ‘rebelled’? That men have ‘asked for it’? I don’t BELIEVE that.

          • PaulBCohen .

            Of course you don’t believe you’re a rebel, Alethea. It’s natural for people not to take responsibility for their sin nature and outcome of their sins. That’s another indication that what’s happened to me is a miracle, because I was enabled to confess myself a sinner and to make things right by God’s grace. I’m no different than you – it’s only the grace of God in Jesus Christ that makes me different.

            You have the cart before the horse here. My belief didn’t lead me to the Lord. The Lord led me to my belief. It’s His doing and power. You can argue with words, but not with the power of God.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            OH NO! I’m a rebel! Well, I’m an old one.

            Though I make mistakes and do some things that hadn’t oughta do sometimes, I am not this bad, bad, sinner who must ask for mercy from an invisible friend or agonize and burn and be tortured forever. I believe that concept is religion by tyranny. I believe that I’ve done nothing so bad as to warrant a person to be tortured and killed in the most bloody and gruesome manner that could be used at the time.

            You are most certainly within your rights to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if you wish – become a Pastafarian if you wish. One either believes or they don’t…. I don’t

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            “But, I believe that man has attempted to make god in HIS image…. give
            god a gender, decide that god looks like a Anglo-Saxon, interpret
            ‘god’s’ words (sorry, I’m smarter than that) as they WISH them to be.”

            This is a direct quote from my post, Paul. Do you see the word ‘believe’ in there?

          • Savannah Nash

            a hardened heart is a closed heart and it refuses to acknowledge truth…and really no one needs to convince anyone…even the rocks will CRY out …God is ALIVE…those that know, KNOW

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Hi Alethea

            The Bible is a dead book to the dead and is without its essence if the reader doesn’t know the Lord. Its true that many men have chosen to make interpretations of the Bible to suit their lusts. I was one of those too before the Lord brought me out of that presumption. Jesus Christ is what its all about:

            Joh 5:39-40 MKJV

            (39) You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,

            (40) and you will not come to Me that you might have life.

            Church and religion have nothing to do with God. You’ll not find one instance in the Bible of believers going to church, participating in the activities you see there today (all ear tickling and entertainment) and everyone choosing a church that suits them. You never hear of believers saying I won’t be going to Paul’s church because it “doesn’t work for me” of to Peter’s, etc. What has changed? Has the world suddenly started loving God whom we killed? He said those that believed Him would be hated by the world. Is this the hatred He was talking about? For evil’s sake?

            The pastors you’ve spoken to are hirelings and aren’t sent of God which is why they model God in their images instead of the other way around. The bible spoke of such as these:

            Mat 24:11-12 MKJV

            (11) And many false prophets will rise and deceive many.

            (12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many will become cold.

            2Co 11:13-15 MKJV

            (13) For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

            (14) Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light?

            (15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.

            This last Scripture seems very applicable to you, Alethea:

            2Pe 2:1-3 MKJV

            (1) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

            (2) And many will follow their pernicious ways, AND BECAUSE OF THEM the way of Truth will be evil spoken of.

            (3) And through covetousness they will use you for gain with well-turned words; for whom judgment from of old does not linger, and their destruction does not sleep.

            Alethea, there’s a true Church, one not visible to the carnal eye and the world. I was deceived by the false for a time because I love lies. The Lord does give strong delusion to such as me but He’s been gracious:

            2Th 2:11-12 MKJV

            (11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,

            (12) so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

            If we believe lies, its only because we’re liars ourselves. The Lord is just in all He does. I have learnt that those who deceived me were judgement by God toward me and therefore need to be forgiven. The issue is within.

            If you want to know about the true Church, you may read here:


            Also for true hope, Lord willing, read:


            I hope you’re not discouraged by what has happened in your past in the search for truth. Consider that the Lord could be providing an opportunity now for the Real thing if that’s what you’re searching for. There’s no membership there. Only the Lord can add to His Church.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I’m not afraid of death without some sort of afterlife – actually, I don’t believe there is an afterlife, so your attempt to ‘save’ me can stop with your first sentence.

          • Simon Mwebaze

            You misunderstood what I said, Alethea. I didn’t mention anything about you fearing death. Why bring that up anyway? Whom are you trying to convince? You don’t need to convince me.

            Secondly, I’m not trying to save you. I can’t and don’t have the power to but the Lord can and will when its your time as with all men.

            So what if you can quote the Bible with the best of them? I don’t see your point. Also, not believing in the afterlife doesn’t nullify its existence just like your lack of belief in gravity won’t change that it exists. You also don’t say whether the truth of the Bible is applicable. Do you know that it isn’t? You value your opinion highly but what good has it brought you?

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Your first verse quote mentions the eternity. I think that when I die I will just be dead and that’s okay with me. The entire premise of Christianity is the promise of the afterlife. Your time with all men – that certainly indicates that there is reward and punishment after one dies, or when the ‘end of days’ is here. Perhaps your disbelief in the Big Bang (?) doesn’t deny its existence. You BELIEVE the afterlife exists but you cannot show me one iota of evidence that it does. Go fish.

            It is not up to me to prove why I disbelieve, Simon. It is up to the one who makes the assertion to prove its truth. Do you not understand that no one can prove a negative. Ball in your court.

            What good has it done me? My opinion, based on a lifetime of study, intense and open minded study, has provided me with freedom – the release of those shackles that kept me from looking around me, ‘seeing’ for the first time, using the brain with which I was born rather than being told that I MUST believe this or that or the other. It provided me with the knowledge and appreciation of what is good and right and how to make a difference without condemning, ostracizing, and marginalizing my fellow human beings. It taught me to recognize the actions that will further a world in which we treasure diversity and LEARN from it, rather than blindly following what a book, comprised of letters and extremely embellished history, ‘instructions’, and conflicting ideas, written by different people, sometimes hundreds and even thousands of years apart, of a certain culture, living in a few hundred square miles of the vast amounts of land on this Earth, who thought it was an abomination to sleep with a menstruating woman. Shall I continue?

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Hi Alethea

            “Your first verse quote mentions the eternity.”

            Is this the verse you’re speaking of?

            Joh 5:39-40 MKJV

            (39) You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,

            (40) and you will not come to Me that you might have life.

            If so, I can’t see where eternity is mentioned. If that’s not the quote, please show me what you’re referring to.

            “I think that when I die I will just be dead and that’s okay with me. The entire premise of Christianity is the promise of the afterlife.”

            You “think” you will just be dead so you don’t know for sure, right? So how do you conclude that there’s no afterlife?

            “Your time with all men – that certainly indicates that there is reward and punishment after one dies, or when the ‘end of days’ is here. Perhaps your disbelief in the Big Bang (?) doesn’t deny its existence. You BELIEVE the afterlife exists but you cannot show me one iota of evidence that it does. Go fish.”

            You make another assumption labeling it as fact by saying “certainly”. Yes, there’s reward and punishment but not necessarily after one dies. We reap as we sow in this life. What do you think all the sickness, accidents, poverty, famine, drought, poisoning with GMOs and flouridation for example, are all about?

            Isa 45:7 KJV

            (7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

            Job 4:7-9 KJV

            (7) Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

            (8) Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

            (9) By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

            Gal 6:7 KJV

            (7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

            Isn’t all the evil happening around us sufficient evidence from the Scriptures I quote? God orchestrates it all.

            I don’t believe in the Big Bang because it makes no sense whatsoever, even scientifically since its not based on any fact. Do you believe in the Big Bang? If you do, maybe you can prove to me how its true? I am yet to meet anyone who can explain it to me.I am willing to listen.

            “It is not up to me to prove why I disbelieve, Simon. It is up to the one who makes the assertion to prove its truth. Do you not understand that no one can prove a negative. Ball in your court.”

            You’re right, Alethea, on not having to prove why you disbelieve but can you prove what you believe with fact/evidence? Why should I believe that what you say is right? You also make the assertion that many others and I are wrong, how so? You haven’ proven anything except to give your opinion. Ball is in your court as well.

            I have presented some evidence as to what I say is true but I know it won’t matter f the Lord doesn’t give you faith.

            “What good has it done me? My opinion, based on a lifetime of study, intense and open minded study, has provided me with freedom – the release of those shackles that kept me from looking around me, ‘seeing’ for the first time, using the brain with which I was born rather than being told that I MUST believe this or that or the other”

            Open minded study? Have you looked at the links provided or paid attention to anything posted by others? Are you only open minded to that which you agree with? Does that make you open minded? What shackles have you been released from, Alethea? Can you give examples? Wouldn’t it be good for the rest of us to experience what you have by what you have found? What have you been able to see since?

            Nothing wrong with using your brain for the right and not for the wrong.

            I was told what to believe since I was a kid. I grew up in a Protestant home, going to church on most Sundays, which I didn’t enjoy honestly. When I got to high school, I started finding a Christianity that suited me in Pentecostal circles because they were more energetic and entertaining. I got more heavily involved at University until the Lord called me and brought me out of the church systems altogether. He showed me after my obedience by His grace that the churches have nothing to do with Him. He showed me how and why by the Scriptures.

            He gave me to see these things His way (in reality) and not how I would like to see them (opinion). I have had to know I was and am wrong and He alone is right. There’s a place for us to submit and be told what to do. Wouldn’t it be good to be told what to do if its right? If you’re going to jump off a building to your death and someone told you it wasn’t clever or good to do that, would you consider that bad? But God knows all things good and bad so how much better would it be to be told by Him what to do in all things? He knows what’s best for us.

            Mat 7:11 KJV

            (11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

            Luk 12:24 KJV

            (24) Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

            He also gave His life for us all yet we hate Him. Who does that? No man I know of.

            “It provided me with the knowledge and appreciation of what is good and right and how to make a difference without condemning, ostracizing, and marginalizing my fellow human beings”

            Have you not condemned most of what has been said to you on this blog based on your opinion? Is that good and right? How do you determine condemnation, ostracizing and marginalising? From the example I gave earlier about jumping off a building, would you consider the person telling you it wasn’t good condemning if you didn’t know better?

            The things of God are life and death matters, always, and as I said earlier, we need faith to see things as they are.

            “It taught me to recognize the actions that will further a world in which we treasure diversity and LEARN from it, rather than blindly following what a book, comprised of letters and extremely embellished history, ‘instructions’, and conflicting ideas, written by different people, sometimes hundreds and even thousands of years apart, of a certain culture, living in a few hundred square miles of the vast amounts of land on this Earth, who thought it was an abomination to sleep with a menstruating woman. Shall I continue?”

            How do you determine these actions? I value diversity in any way that it adds value. How do you know I don’t or I am not learning from others? How do you establish I am following a the Bible blindly? I commented earlier that its about the Lord, the Bible is dead without the Lord. Its all about Him and understanding His words in the Bible comes from having a relationship with Him. Paul also told you that, right?

            God doesn’t change with distance, time and is no respecter of persons.

            Mal 3:6 KJV

            (6) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

            Heb 13:8 KJV

            (8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

            Act 10:34-35 KJV

            (34) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

            (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

            Concerning your last comment on menstruation, I won’t get into the details because the thought of it is wrong. What’s the good in that when a woman is suffering cramps, hormonal swings and letting out blood?

            God’s laws don’t make sense to men because we are entirely corrupt. We’re really sick. Thank God that He died for our redemption from our sick sick selves!

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Quote all you like, Simon. I can do that, too. However, I don’t believe what is in the bible is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. In fact, I believe the vast majority of the bible is a way to record history, but it’s been greatly embellished and made to get the reader’s interest… the ‘wow’ factor. For example, there were never any walls at Jericho. but saying that there were makes it far more interesting than, “Joshua went into Jericho and killed a bunch of people.” I don’t believe it was ‘inspired’ by a god. If it were, then god added plenty of contradiction and confusion to the mix.

            I don’t believe I was born a ‘sinner’. I arrived here as a rather helpless child and I had done nothing wrong, but someone told me I had because of some female in a mythical garden, who was told by some supernatural entity to avoid the tree of knowledge (evidently it was because ‘Eve’, and subsequently ‘Adam’, were to remain ignorant), even though that supernatural entity that supposedly created these ‘people’ KNEW that those people wouldn’t listen and decided to punish every person thereafter. The entity made a trap to catch them being baaaaad little children so he could send plagues, pestilence, punishment and panic on them. Rather sadistic I think. Oh, and that’s the reason women have labor pains.

            You and anyone else are free to believe that. I don’t. I have done absolutely nothing to warrant the unthinkable torture and atrocious murder of some person who came from that supernatural entity (to save us from those nasty sins), that
            supposedly impregnated some perfect little virgin with himself.

            I don’t believe that a god would contact his most devout servant, Abraham, and order Abe to take his wonderful son away to offer him as a sacrifice to him… just to prove his loyalty. Loyal Abe did so and was poised with the knife to slay Isaac when god said, “Oh, wait! I was just foolin’. There’s a ram in the bushes for you to kill for me.”

            New Testament is full of contradictions.

            Go ahead and believe it! Nothing wrong with that at all! But, don’t expect me to do so.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha


            The Bible tell us that God’s Ten Commandment law will stand throughout all eternity. These verses also make it clear that the covenant that stands forever is the covenant of the Ten Commandments. This is very important, because when the New Testament speaks of a covenant or a law that was discontinued, it cannot possibly refer to the law or covenant of the Ten Commandments.
            Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 3:14 makes it very clear that God will never change or abolish His Ten Commandants. At the end of creation week God blessed, sanctified, and made holy Saturday, the seventh day of the week. God never blessed, sanctified, or made holy any other day of the week, and Ecclesiastes 3:14 makes it clear that God’s seventh-day Sabbath, Saturday, will remain blessed, sanctified and holy throughout all eternity.
            Many people try to twist these clear Bible texts that tell us that the Ten Commandments will stand forever by saying that these verses are “Figurative” language, or these verses are “Spiritual,” or that “Forever” does not really mean forever, or in some other way to try to cloud the meaning. Many Christians today claim that the Ten Commandments were only for the Jews, but they are quick to say that they are not allowed to lie, murder, commit adultery, or break any other of the Ten Commandments except the Sabbath commandment!…….True!
            We saw that Jesus, Himself, tells us to live by every word out of the mouth of God in Matthew 4:4. “But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” Directly out of the mouth of God came the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:3-17. These are the ONLY verses in the Bible that God, Himself, wrote. And God, Himself wrote them to make us realize their importance and to make us realize that they would forever be in effect. That is why He wrote them on tables of stone to show their permanence….True!
            Which verses in the Bible would you consider to be more important, the verses God, Himself, wrote or the verses someone else wrote?
            Jesus said in Matthew 5:17,18 that He did not come to destroy the law. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” We saw in chapter one that the earth will abide forever. Here again in the clearest words possible Jesus tells us that He did not come to abolish the law but that the law will be in effect for ever.
            Which law is Jesus referring to? The law that will be in force throughout all eternity, the Ten Commandments. How can Sunday Churches believe and claim that Jesus abolished the law, when He says plainly in these verses that He did NOT come to abolish the law! …Jesus fulfilled the law by perfectly obeying every one of the Ten Commandments and your Bible and my Bible has NOT CHANGED and never WILL…….Amen.
            We saw in (1 John 3:4 ) that sin is breaking any of the Ten Commandments. “Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” When Sunday Christians throw out the Ten Commandments, they are throwing away the definition of sin……Sin leads to “DEATH”.
            When did God institute His Ten Commandment law? We know that Satan sinned in heaven before the earth was created, so the Ten Commandments must have been in force then. We also know that Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, so the Ten Commandments must have been in force in the Garden of Eden. We saw in Chapter1 that those who are saved will be keeping God’s Sabbath day, Saturday, holy throughout all eternity. The Ten Commandment law is the constitution of heaven. It is the law whereby God’s entire universe operates. If it were not, the entire universe would have the problems we have on earth today……True!
            In fact, one of the main reasons God created the earth was to show to the universe what happens when people continually break God’s law.1Corinthians 4:9 tells us: “For we are made a spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men.” The word “spectacle” is translated from the Greek word theatron, which means “theater.” This present earth was created to be the theater of the universe where God is demonstrating to all the intelligent beings in the universe what happens when a society disobeys His law, the Ten Commandments. As the final result of the drama taking place on this earth, all of God’s creation — men, angels, and other forms of intelligent life throughout the Universe will thoroughly understand that without obeying God’s law there can be no peace, for they are witnessing the trouble, misery, pain, and death that are the natural consequences of disregarding the law of God…..True!
            Isaiah 24:4-5 is a prophecy of the trouble that occurs when the people of the earth declare that God’s law is no longer in effect. “The earth mourns and fades away, the world languishes and fades away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.” The wars and trouble, the pain and suffering all over the earth today are a direct result of people disregarding God’s Ten Commandments…..Some of the churches even today are so lost…Why?…..God wrote the covenant, the Ten Commandment to obey……Jesus said, you break one of these Laws you break the LOT…….Which law has affected most churches today…..The 4th Commandment…..Remember the SABBATH and keep it HOLY…….Remember it is Jesus who is LORD of the Sabbath not US……Amen.
            We cannot disregard any part of the Bible and think you are safe….Amen…Life is real, Death is real, …..You Choose!

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Dr. Tai Rupta – What you have so laboriously written here has proven so many of the points I have expressed in this thread. You quote verse after verse of which I am keenly familiar and throughout your entire diatribe, you make it clear that you believe your interpretation of the words written by people thousands of years ago, is the correct and true one. How arrogant of you. The last line of this useless post says it all. You are no different than the many people here who are convinced that their interpretation is the only true one. Christians are arguing over and over about who is right and the use words like, “WRONG! The bible says… and it means…”, “God says this…”, “God told us that…”, “Jesus said… and he means… ” You are thumping, preaching and proselytizing to the wrong person here, Dr. Rupta. Go argue with your fellow Christians.

          • Tai Rupuha

            It sounds like you have found a different Jesus and have lost your
            way …….I have never interpret the WORD!….Why!…..Because this
            Bible is based on TRUTH! and no one on this earth can INTERPRET the
            TRUTH….True! Absolutely……And the TRUTH will set you
            FREE….Remember Jesus said….I am the WAY the TRUTH and the
            LIFE…..Not you nor I…..Amen….Bless you.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I am happy that you are happy. But, you cannot state the the Bible is true. You BELIEVE it is true. Having faith that something is true does not make it true. Having faith does not make it probably true. Having faith has no bearing on truth whatsoever. Having faith simply means that you believe whether it is true or not. Faith, by definition, is the suspension of critical thinking.

            Everyone has an interpretation of the words in the Bible. Please, tell me which interpretation of Jesus’ ancestry is the truth (or neither is the truth?) – Matthew 1:1-17 or Luke 3 21-38.

            Perhaps it is you who has lost his way by not using the top-of-the-food-chain brain your god supposedly gave you.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            Food chain-brain!….Do you always get personal with people you don’t know Ale?
            You don’t sound very intelligent to me…..Your scriptures you quoted don’t relate to what you are saying…..Most worldly people are like this….So lost….How sad…Sorry I can’t help you but Jesus can……Bless you


          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Most Christians, and those of other faiths, believe that their god gave them ‘dominion’ over and brain function higher than ‘lowly’ animals i.e., top-of-the-food-chain brain. Nothing personal about that.

            My name is Alethea, not Ale. I have addressed you as Dr. throughout this conversation. I expect the same respect from you.

            The scriptures I cite most certainly do relate to my statements about interpretations of the Bible. But, let’s try others. How do you interpret the differences between the creation stories in Genesis:
            Genesis 1:11-12 and 1:26-27 Trees came before Adam.
            Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after Adam.

            Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 Birds were created before Adam.
            Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.

            Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before Adam.
            Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Animals were created after Adam.

            Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
            Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, woman sometime later.

            Which do you interpret as true of these stories? And, why in Gen 1:26 does god say, “Let us make man in OUR image after OUR likeness?” How could Cain have gone to a city east of Eden, Nod, and taken a wife? Why is there not a trace of the Hebrews wandering in the desert for 40 years – no gold, no pottery, no remains of fire, no signs of feces, no bones, no leather? These items would probably be fantastically preserved in the heat and dryness of the wilderness. Why is there no Egyptian record of the enslavement of the Hebrews? All of these require interpretations, explanations, and translations of the words, Dr.

            I truly don’t need your help, nor that of some preacher named Jesus. I am not broken in need of fixing, not lost, needing to be found, not unworthy and needing to be saved, not a sheep with a need to be led, not weak needing some invisible being’s strength and not so bad that I have to have YOUR faith and the threat of eternal torment in order to function as a good person – alive, well and happy. Show me one iota of verifiable evidence of heaven, hell or an afterlife, and I may change my mind.

          • Judy007

            well, I don’t think trees stopped producing once Adam was made. Yip the trees and everything else were made BEFORE him but heck they still carried on producing AFTER him. That’s to show progeny.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            No one said that they had. You did not get the points of my post. Best to read the first two chapters of Genesis to understand what I’ve said.

            There has been no verifiable evidence to support the existence of Adam, Eve, Eden, Cain, Able and hosts of other Biblical characters and places.

            It is your interpretation that the words are to show progeny. Nothing to support that statement anywhere in the Bible.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            RESPECT!! for calling you Ale…..You called me Dr Rupta…..I never heard of him!….That tells you can’t READ either….True!…..How sad….God bless you.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I apologize for my misreading of your name, Dr. Rupuha. It was unintentional. However, I don’t believe ‘Ale’ was a slip up.

            You have not answered any of my queries. Please, tell me how you interpret or explain the contradictions I’ve pointed out.

            In addition, you may want to brush up on the use of the ellipses in punctuation before accusing someone of not being able to read.

          • Judy007

            What is going on here Alethea? I wonder if G-d deals in English only or in the US dollar at all. Why so brash about lingual prowess. I love what Dr. Tai Rupuha has said. By his pseudonym, if that, he’s probably not an english mother-tongue speaker. Not many of us are. There are so many sites who think exactly like you. Why sit it out here? I saw decent christians simply banter about how they feel. They’re in this mortal coil and have not yet been glorified physically. Struggles are for ALL of us. But LANGUAGE instruction? that’s really petty.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Dr. Rupuha shortened my name to Ale, said I wasn’t very intelligent and then said I could not read. I apologized for not paying more attention to his name. However, Ale was an intentional abbreviation of my name – no accident. I didn’t call him Rup or even Dr. Rup. I find that type of thing disrespectful.

            After telling me that I was lost, worldly, not intelligent and that I could not read, I responded with his punctuation problems. You have added ‘petty’ to the list. It is not a matter of ‘mother-tongues’, but a matter of personal aspersions. Please, address Dr. Rupuha about the personal parts of his posts.

            I know that there are other websites. I chose to address this particular subject. Have you read my other posts in this thread? It was not until I voiced my own opinion that the proselytizing began. The Dr. is just another in a long line of those who intend to save me – sometimes with vengeance. I have been PM’d by many who have pounced like a cat. And, all because I disagreed.

            I’ve asked Dr. Rupuha some questions in order to start the banter of which you speak. He has avoided answering any of them.

            If you like what the Dr. has said, that’s just fine! I’ve no problem with that.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            As I have mention before to thousands……There is no human being on this earth who can INTERPRET the HOLY BIBLE…..Why?….Because the WORD is based on TRUTH….And the WORD is JESUS….True!…Amen…..Its that simple….This is what Jesus is telling you Alethea……I AM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE no one comes to the FATHER except by ME…Amen……So move on……Remember this…..JESUS IS THE AUTHOR of your Holy Bible……True!…..The Holy Bible is His INSTRUCTION to you and SPIRITUAL food for your SOUL……Amen….So stop beating yourself up about INTERPRETATION because you won’t get that from ME!…..Your Bible is only based on TRUTH not INTERPRETATION…..God bless and take care.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I have heard it, read it, and studied it along with many other religious texts from all over the world. What you are saying is nothing I haven’t heard before. In fact, I’ve heard it now for over 60 years.

            Religion after religion says that theirs is the one, the pathway to god, the ultimate, the hotline to god. All say the same as you have posted here. There are some 2000 gods being worshiped today. You’re an atheist, Dr. You don’t believe in 1999 of those gods. I don’t believe in 2000 of them.

            You have been interpreting the words of the Bible throughout our conversation, yet you have not attempted to answer my questions. You’ve evaded each one. And, it’s just fine if you would rather think you know it all. Have a good evening.

          • Judy007

            Alethea, what is it that you would want all of us to do. Would you be happy and feel accomplished if we listened to you and from this moment stopped believing in G-d. What is your aim. Christians study the word with the Holy Spirit. Nothing will take us away from Him. We pray in the name of Yeshua. What exactly is your dream for us all here? that we leave G-d and walk your way.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Actually, I would like it if I can state an opinion and not be automatically pegged as a blasphemer and sinner, as lost, bitter, ignorant, and close-minded. I have no aim or agenda other than speaking my own mind WITH courtesy.

            Honestly, I don’t care what a person worships or what they pray to – YAHWEH, Baal, Odin, Zeus, Zoroaster, Ganesha, Mithra or My Little Pony. What I DO object to is being pounded over the head by those with whom I disagree. It appears that an opposing opinion creates animosity rather than open, non-combative debate – even amongst fellow Christians!

            I could ask you the same question, Judy. What is it you want me to do? Forget everything I’ve studied and learned for over 60 years and believe as you do? Be frightened of an imaginary place called hell? I’m very much afraid that won’t happen. But most everyone here keeps plugging away at it with Bible verses (I’m familiar with them all), accusations (I’m unworthy and evil), and name-calling (I’ve been called Satan’s Whore before!)! If you look at my past posts, you would see that I don’t do or say these things to others. So, what would you have ME do?

            By the way, I see you write G-d as the Jewish people do and say Yeshua. Is Judaism part of your belief/culture?

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            You are one hard BASKET!……2000 gods being worshiped!…..WOW!!! where
            is that in your Bible……Have you been worshiping IDLES Alethea?…….I myself serve one ALMIGHTY GOD…..YAHWEH ( Lord Jehovah) who has 15 other NAME TITLES through out your Bible……So humble yourself and stop reading RUBBISH……You say I’m an atheist…..Mmmmm….I see the Ruler of this WORLD is on the PROWL again……Bless you

            .That your trouble when you walk in the FLESH……YOU GAIN NOTHING!….Bless you

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            * Yep! One hard basket.
            * Not in the Bible. No, no idols.
            * Serve whoever or whatever you choose. Maybe the porcelain god?
            * If you are referring to the devil as world ruler, and me or something in control of me as the ruler, that’s laughable. I’ve been called worse and by better people.
            * Your trouble is that you live on the earth, not in it. And, that’s pitiable.
            * Once again, nice side-step.
            * Nice talking with you, Dr. Have a great life.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            Like wise Alethea…..Take care too….Bye

          • Brandon Brasseau

            Alethea, actually no one has to prove anything to you.
            You are already convinced that there is no afterlife.
            Therefore, you have made up your mind and since you
            are so smart, you wouldn’t believe anything anyone told
            you, even if they had tangible proof. What you don’t
            understand is the concept of faith. God would not make
            it that you or anyone else could automatically get proof
            of an eternal afterlife since He wants us to trust Him
            even when we can’t “see” with our natural eyes. That is
            what faith is all about. No one needs to convince you since
            you obviously think you are above all of that. I do pity the
            person who spent their whole lives discounting the existence
            of an afterlife and then found out after death that the
            very place they spoke so adamently against is the very
            place they would spend their eternity. By then, it’s too late.
            You “think” there is no afterlife. Oh my, to be so unsure yet
            to take that chance. Someone in another comment is
            defending you that we are forcing our opinions on you. But here you are doing the same to
            believers in Christ and believers in an eternal heaven & hell.The reason you can’t believe the scriptures is because you have set yourself against them and become your own
            god. I pray your eyes will be opened because God loves
            you and Jesus paid the price for your sins as well as others.
            But He will not force Himself on you. He will urge you to
            get to know Him but He will not make you love Him. That is
            why He has given us free will. However, He still makes the
            laws and the guidelines for daily living. You may not
            agree with them, but just because you don’t agree doesn’t
            make them any less valid.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            Well said Brandon….Bless you.

          • Mel Lanier

            Simon it’s very disrespectful to

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Hi Mel…how am I disrespectful? Can you show me how?

          • Jody Pussycat

            Simon, Look at you… a lady says “No thank you” and you seem to know what is better for her own life than she does – then because she won’t bend to YOUR WILL – look at how you belittle her? If this is your version of Christianity – then you’re not doing it right. You don’t have the power to do ANYTHING about someone else or make their choices and this is WHY I don’t want to go to your church. Bible isn’t applicable for everyone and there are other points of view. Learn some respect.

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Hi Jody…show me how I have belittled her. Its not enough to just say so. Provide some facts. How about Alethea? Hasn’t she belittled anyone? Are you blind to her posts because you stand with her? Are you being honest, Jody, or just picking the side that is preferable to you?

            How do you know this is my version of Christianity and not the Lord’s? Is that your opinion or is it what God has shown you? If its Him that has shown you, why not show me how I am wrong by the Scriptures? Opinion won’t help in this case…it never does unless its based on truth.

            Jody, you make a lot of assumptions about me. I said I know I can’t change anyone. Did you read my earlier comments carefully or were you more interested in speaking your opinion without considering what I said? Please read my comments carefully before you falsely accuse.

            I don’t belong to a church as you know it. I left the church system in 2012 by the grace of God and He is showing me what the true Church is and in due time, will join me to it, Lord willing, in this life. Its not a Church where one can join themselves, only the Lord adds to it.

            Lastly, the Bible is applicable to everyone because it contains God’s Law and Words. You may not believe it as I said of gravity earlier but that doesn’t matter. Sin brings death and hell which you and Alethea would know you’re in if you believed the Lord. I’m not trying to make you believe this or trying to be disrespectful. I’m stating how it is.

            Just because you don’t believe what the Bible has to say, doesn’t make it void. Maybe you can show me how it isn’t applicable to you, Jody? Can you? Or are you posting your opinion? Can you provide any facts on how it isn’t applicable to you?

          • Jody Pussycat

            Simon I just happened to read the one comment and scanned the rest because I actually live life off the internet. You have a persecution complex dude… if you can’t handle being told to back off by a lady whom doesn’t want you to push your opinions on her. I was standing up for her as it seems you can’t understand when a lady says “No thank you” and as a female myself completely turned off by most churches (not all) for the way they treat women. How church fails women and is misogynistic toward them… is a problem. As a Christian – maybe you could help make the world a better place instead of trying to force yourself on others. Because that’s something a lot don’t seem to understand it is not how you change people;s mind. Lead by example.

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Jody, you’ve only presented your opinion once again. You haven’t considered what I responded to you earlier.

            Pro 18:13
            13 If one gives an answer before he hears,
            it is his folly and shame.

            If you cared for anyone, you would consider the things said before the Lord and respond with substance but you don’t which only goes to show that you’re here for yourself, Jody.

            How about you put proof to what you’re saying? Will you take the time to read all the comments, consider before God and answer for Alethea and everyone’s sakes?

            Do you care enough to prove that I am persecuting Alethea with facts? Or will you merely accuse?

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            Amen brother……Well said…..The TRUTH will always set people Free.

          • Rita Gilliam

            Maybe it’s time to change churches. I have a phenomenal woman pastor at my ELCA Lutheran church in MN. I wouldn’t belong to a church that discriminates against women, gays, lesbians, transgenders. I find the right ELCA Lutheran church (mind you, some of them are, as individual churches, discrimination), but if you keep searching, you can find one that is accepting and loving of everyone.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            You’re wasting your time trying to ‘save’ me, Rita. I’ve already been approached by multitudes – each claiming that THEY are the ones who know the truth. I’m out.

          • dr nena

            When I first said I wanted to go to Seminary my pastor and his daughter (who was my best friend made fun of me). Once I got there I left after 8 months because my advisor counseled my classmates and I that as future therapists we did not need to work with homosexuals we could simply “choose not to develop expertise in that area” even though our field’s professional organization required that we have training to work with GLBT individuals as a high risk/need group. I thought how unprofessional/unchristian packed my bags and headed back to the Midwest. Now I work with incarcerated felons again you’d be amazed the things that I’ve heard said by supposed Christians about how I’m wasting my time. Then there’s simply the fact that most people in the church especially older females who aren’t clearly bothered by my Doctorate in Psychology are horrified by my MA in Religion. Enough is enough.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Thank you for posting! It is good to hear from someone who has had similar experiences. I feel as if I dodged a bullet when I chose to stay away from seminary. I wish you continued success and happiness! And, poop on the old biddies. 😀

          • Darrell

            (1Ti 2:11) Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.

            (1Ti 2:12) But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

            (1Ti 2:13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve;

            (1Ti 2:14) and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:

            (1Ti 2:15) but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Wow, Darrell! You are one of the types who can make a person RUN from your church and your black book! Stepped on your dick-string with this one!

          • Brandon Brasseau

            I say everyone please stop commenting to Alethea. She
            obviously enjoys the arguing back and forth. Her
            mind is made up and maybe we should all move
            on to constructive conversations. Let’s speak with
            those that have a listening ear. You know there
            are people that aren’t quite sure what they believe
            but will at least listen to others. Apparently Alethea
            is “much smarter” than we are so let’s not bother
            her with our “opinions”. We as true Christians know
            the truth and know the bible is real and there is
            only one true God and one true Savior whose name
            is Jesus. It’s useless to speak with those who argue
            about everything. I say pray for her eyes to be opened
            and for God to show her he loves her and wants her
            to know Him. But please quit arguing with her. She
            doesn’t want the truth, she wants a god that lines up
            with her perceptions, not with truth. The bible says
            she will not believe the truth because there is a veil
            over her eyes. Pray for God to remove the veil.
            She is after all precious to God and Jesus died for
            her sins too.

          • RalphieD

            I upvoted that comment because (at first) I thought you were trying to support Alethea and her point. There sure is some stuff written that says unfair and untoward things about women vs men. All the more reason that this scripture is outdated and not worthy of guiding people’s lives. The examples you’ve cited help make that point.

          • Sara Schmidt

            Alethea, there is a huge difference… the difference between night and day… between participating in certain church activities and following the Lord. It is true that God doesn’t place women in authority over men in the calling of a pastor or teacher; it is not true that He doesn’t wish women to spread the Word in whatever capacity He has given them to do so.

            But first she must be following Him outside the system, which is all falsehood and error. He says to those He would bring to Himself, “Come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing.” There is the false church – all those organizations taking His Name and doing their own thing, under whatever names they choose. And there is the true Church, which isn’t found at all in the works and names of men. As I said, they are as different as night and day.

            For more on this, read The Church:

            Counterfeit Christianity:

            The Case for Coming Out:

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, Sara. I’ve read your books. I could suggest plenty of books that would enlighten you about the fallacies of your faith, but you probably wouldn’t read them because your ‘belief’ says that would be wicked. You’d prefer to remain ignorant of the world in which you live. Your choice.

            Nothing you’ve said is something that I have not read and studied. Save it.

          • RN Nutrition

            Quit trying to convince those who are not alive in Christ. Share the Good News and stop trying to “convince”. Things of God are nonsense to those who are not in the Spirit.

          • Sara Schmidt

            Who says I’m trying to convince, “RN”? I was sharing the truth I was given to share with Alethea. How do you distinguish between that and trying to convince?

            Besides, it was truth for all, not just Alethea.

            Also, don’t you think that you of all people should try to convince, since you say that those who remain “unconvinced” upon death go to eternal hell?

            I believe no such falsehood, knowing that my Savior is Savior of the whole world – “each man in his order.”

          • RN Nutrition

            I do not believe in convincing… But sharing. Continued argument is futile with the non-believer.

          • RN Nutrition

            Wow… did not take much for you to leave the Church… did it? Your whole point of view based on one Pastor. You sure have a great relationship with the living King.

          • Judy007

            what does the bible say about that in effect? The NT? Sorry am not judgmental just asking questions. Also as for tithing – to whom?? according to the bible? Only the Jews had temples where they sacrificed, and G-d says the church is invisible. Would love some answers, no fighting, just people’s ideas on such.

          • Josh Fields

            The church never hurts anyone. It’s the backslid carnal minded Christians that hurt people. All the above examples of being hurt or let down are not God’s doing. The Church is and always will be pure, perfect, and Holy. Don’t let a backslid Christian that acts according to the flesh keep you from seeing the true beauty and love of Christ and has chaste bride. I suggest everyone find a good spirit filled church and get away from these commercialized businesses that say they are a church. I pray that people will get more concerned about lost and troubled souls instead of arguing about what tithing is. God don’t need your money. He just wants you, and if you want him, you will give because you want to. As far as having expectations forced on anyone…that is a legalistic Pharisee religion. God sets us free and he has 2 expectations. Love him and love your neighbor. All the legalistic preaching is a big contributor to what the author spoke about. The letter killers but the spirit brings life. If you want a good church, find one with the spirit instead of one being run like a business or country club. It breaks my heart to see so many hurt in church and many have never known anything but these detrimental establishments using religion as means of personal gain. Hope all finds the spirit and perfect love of Christ. He never Will hurt you. God Bless

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            The people ARE the church and that church is perfectly capable of hurting people. If god ‘don’t need’ our money, then there’s no reason to go and put money in an offering plate.

          • Josh Fields

            I agree people are the church, but it is only those that are doing God’s will. The outward man is capable of hurting, but the true church is made up of the inward part. The inner man is christlike and carries all the same qualities.The flesh will go back to the earth so that is not the true church. God owns everything and created everything so why would you think that he “needs” your money. The purpose of an offering plate is to freely give whatever one chooses to give for the necessity of the church or people in need. You don’t have to give anything. God don’t require you to give a %. If you truly love him, you will want to help advance the church in anyway you can. But it is not a requirement for his unconditional love.(The Book of Acts teaches us this). I am sorry to hear that you have been hurt and that has caused you to be bitter. It sounds like it was some legalistic Pharisees that hurt you. God never hurt you and never will. I know what it is like to be hurt and shared some of those same feelings. I know have realized that it was the works of Satan that hurt me. Just like Jesus was betrayed by a kiss. That too was Satan. God is love and I pray that you find again the beauty for your ashes. Let go of that bitterness and ask God to heal you. You will be so much stronger and appreciate the suffering that your saviour endured for you that much more. We will suffer persecution, ridicule, and false accusations as we are not above our master. I don’t know you but your posts really touched me and out of a love in my heart for my fellow Christians I sincerely hope that something I have said will help you rediscover the joy of the Lord. I normally don’t involve myself with the trivial arguments on religious opinions as you can see by several post. Your comments hit close to home and felt a need to try to help.We have to let go and forgive those that hurt us to truly be set free. When we hold to those painful experiences to the point we become bitter, we are the ones in bondage. God bless

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Not bitter one little bit. Just know what I hear, observe, and believe. My money and time is better spent giving directly to those who need it and deserve it rather than paying the bills of a church – the mortgage, the insurance, the electricity, water, and gas, the maintenance, the remodeling, the paving of the parking lot, the new pews and hymnals, the salaries of the pastor, secretary, maintenance personnel – and that building sits empty most of the time. Very little of the free will offering goes to those in need. It’s a self sustaining charity.

            No, nothing you have said will ‘help’ me. You feel that I’m bitter because I don’t attend or intend to go to ‘church’. My shackles fell off when I left that mess and I realized what faith truly was. It’s not the church, religion, pastors, music and Sunday School. It’s not the indoctrination of our young to believe that the only way to be a good person is to go to that building and follow everything they say. I’m not the one in bondage.

          • Josh Fields

            Doesn’t sound like an organization I would want to go to either. There are good churches out there. Not all places that affiliate themselves with God have God anywhere near it. I am sorry that I nor anyone else can help you. Its hard to help people when they feel they are above help. I don’t know about you but I need all the help I can get. Church is an important place otherwise Christ wouldn’t have give his life for it. By rejecting his house you intern are rejecting him. I don’t say you are bitter because you don’t attend church. I say you have bitter feelings from your own testimonies and attitude towards anyone that tries to speak anything you disagree with. It appears that you just want to be disagreeable. If you look for the negative you will find it. There will always be imperfection here. Christ never stopped his ministry because he was hurt or because he saw the temple being misused. Instead of complaining and bad mouthing the church, stand up and help to change it. It’s easy to be a critic. Focus your drive and determination in a more edifying way than trying to make others share your pain. It’s impossible to say you love God but yet say his wife is a terrible thing. I will pray that your heart isn’t hardened and God touches you, so that you can see the importance of HIS house. There is a way that seemeth right….

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            If I disagree, I’m bitter? I’m above help? Ah, now comes the criticism because I have beliefs that you don’t share. I’m addressing this article and the starter of this thread, Virginia Moher who, by the way, said that she will not go back to church, either. Have you tried to ‘help’ her?

            I do have very strong opinions and am not adverse to stating them. You must remember that it is not I who began personal responses to others’ posts. I made a general statement saying that the commenters were proving Pavlovitz right by ignoring the real issues and moving straight into the junk of religion. That, for some reason has made the natives restless and they have decided that I must… oh no!… be helped.

            I could easily begin to ‘help’ show how bound up you are yourself, but I don’t feel the need to try to make you come to my way of thinking. Stating opinions – and I most certainly have – is not the same as trying to convert, ‘help’ (that’s funny to me), or save someone by handing out personal criticism.

            It is this behavior that puts me way off organized religion. My faith is deeply personal and very important to me. My relationship with Creator is between Creator and me.

          • Josh Fields

            Not trying to make you do anything. Just stating what is biblically correct. You have your opinions but that’s all they are. I am not criticizing you. If you are allowed to speak your opinions can I not speak mine? I commented on your post only because you initiated a reply to a post of mine. Sorry you felt singled out or threatened. God of the Bible is your creator and if you believe in him you must also believe and accept Christ. If you do not believe in Christ or are not born again of the spirit then everything makes sense to me why you are so combative and bad mouth the church. I will carry this conversation no further as the bible instructs me to avoid foolish questions. “This behavior” is an excuse that people often use when they don’t want to come to the knowledge of the truth. He who exalts himself shall be abased…Pilate didn’t recognize the truth when it stood right in front of him. When we look through carnal eyes we are blind to things of the spirit. Feel free to show me how bound I am because you are obviously so much more knowledgeable than me. Too bad the carnal mind is enmity against God. You can disagree with me, get angry, or even hate but there is only one way to heaven and it’s not through my or your opinions. It is through Christ….Ye must be born again. No birth ever happens without the mother church. Saul Saul why kickest against the pricks? Why try to discourage and hinder everyone that post here because you were wronged at some point? Do you feel better by doing that? Anyways I am sure you will respond to get last word so you will feel like you win….but it’s not about arguing or criticizing or trying to prove the level of one’s intelligence. I will step away now, say what you will, think what you want to think but God’s opinion is the only one that is relevant. Your opinions don’t line up with his word and that is something I will never accept. How can you criticize several people here and the church but yet the first thing you say is stop criticizing me lol….sorry I bothered. One thing about it the word penetrates the heart whether you like or acknowledge it. So I say goodbye finding great comfort that God’s word won’t return void.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I don’t hate you, nor am I angry. And, I’m not trying to ‘win’, whatever that means.

            Please, copy and paste any sentence(s) where I have criticized without being accused of some wrong doing because I stated what I believe.

            Yes, I was wronged way back, WAY back. But, that was over 50 years ago. What I am now is older and wiser.

          • Simon Mwebaze

            What’s the mother church you speak of, Josh? Where do in the Scriptures did you get the idea that you can “accept” Christ? How can we tell you believe? What’s the difference between you and what James says here:

            Jas 2:19 MKJV

            (19) You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

            Are they born again by your words above?

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Hi Josh

            Who are these good churches? How do you set the criteria for good and bad churches? By Whom/whom do you establish what are the true and false?

            As for imperfection, is the Lord wrong when He says:

            Mat 5:48 MKJV

            (48) Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

            Joh 17:22-23 MKJV

            (22) And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one,

            (23) I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.

            1Co 2:6 MKJV

            (6) But, we speak wisdom among those who are PERFECT; yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, that come to nothing.

            2Co 13:11 MKJV

            (11) Finally, brothers, rejoice. PERFECT yourselves; encourage yourselves; mind the same thing; be at peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

            There’s more.

            You end with the Scripture:

            Pro 14:12 MKJV

            (12) There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death.

            How do you know you’re not on it, Josh?

          • jozie

            God does not dwell in buildings made of human hands. The church of today, the tangible one you can touch, is in great ruin. It does not, nor will it ever, resemble the early church of ancient. If we are his church, his bride, why are so many investing time and money in a brick and mortar? Because it’s extremely profitable, that’s why.
            Jesus never needed anything tangible to spread the love of Christ and bring salvation. He used himself ! If we are the body, hands and feet why do we not go and do ?
            You argue that the church, the tangible one, does much for the people but I am in great disagreement with you and even if they do, it’s not with right motive.
            I am just minutes from The Billy Graham 1200 acre estate that claims they assist those in need of Jesus, yet there are over 800 homeless and starving men women and children living under bridges and sleeping in the woods.
            Churches only help those who are willing to bow down to the legalisms they purport.
            Many many many teachers of today like BG and CS who claim they come in the name of God are lying to millions … they come in the name of their own God … Money ! Celebrity Status Fame and Fortune.
            It’s everywhere and it’s every Preacher
            And it’s prophecy being played out today, right here, right now.

          • There are no such “churches” in my town. All are teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

            And no, I cannot move. My disability keeps me in poverty, unable to work to earn enough to move out of the town to a better location.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I’m sorry your disability has limited you in so many ways, Ronald! I, too, am disabled but am rarely limited as are some. There are many folks in your situation and it’s a rotten shame. Do people come to help you?

          • Neighbors are kind, as far as communication goes… when they see me outside. But the only people that knock on my door are JW’s or Mormons. LoL

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            LOL! Where are the members of your church? Are there none who stop by to see if you need some help, etc?

          • I am not in Church at present. The last Church I was a member of, I had been a member for seven years.

            When God gave me boldness to speak in my community (not in the building we call Church) the truth about tithes as written in God’s Word, the Church had a secret meeting and voted my wife and I out.

            I say “secret” because, although we were members, we were not invited to the meeting to even defend ourselves. We only knew about the meeting after the fact. We received an email two days after the meeting telling us that we were no longer members and were not welcome until we repent of our “unscriptural teaching against the Biblical tithe”.

            The sad thing is, I have Scripture that proves my teaching to be 100% accurate, while their teaching is totally foreign to the Word of God.

            My wife is the only one in the house who is able to drive. And she refuses to go to another monetary tithe-teaching Church. And to tell you the truth, I don’t want to submit my ears to those lies anymore either.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I see… and I don’t blame you. It is behavior such as that which drove me away from any church or organized religion.

          • Marge Brown

            Do you let the Mormons in? try listening to them. At least the do knock on your door, unlike your own prisoners.

          • Marge Brown

            Ronald I am a paraplegic and live alone and can do for myself but
            I have not become bitter and find fault with everything and everyone who is trying to help their fellowman..

          • I don’t find fault with everyone. Only those teach contrary to God’s Word. Those who do, such as tithe-teachers, point one to a false christ and should be exposed as heretics.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Ronald, humbly I say, you believe that anyone who does not see it, or interpret it, as YOU do, is worthy of judgment, are heretics, and blasphemers. I’m sorry you have decided that you and ‘god’ are tight and no one knows as much as does Ronald W Robey. What does the word say about arrogance, false pride and self absorbance? Quote them, oh learned one.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Why is it that if a person has stated their situation and their views on the church, religion, dogma etc., and someone else doesn’t agree with what they’ve said, the word ‘bitter’ comes out? What if others find your beliefs and tenets full of bitterness because they don’t agree with same?

          • PaulBCohen .

            One important thing to add here, Josh. If the Lord or His people do hurt you, it’s only because they speak the truth and that can be painful. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful” (Proverbs 27:6 KJV). We have all needed to be hurt for the right reason, and God lets us know in advance what must be. “For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?” (Hebrews 12:6-7 MKJV)

          • Thomas Everroad

            “A spirit of rebellion’ ? I’ll give you 3 reasons why the church is not listening.
            1: the Church” does not have ears nor a brain and cannot “listen” to anything. The church is a organized group of humans who can’t even agree on which version of the bible is the right one to read.
            2: the church is not there to “listen” it is there to control the people and try to give them a contrived sense of direction , and that all (of course) depends on the personal preferences of the ones that needs the income to complete their lifestyle, build their buildings and support people who would rather be stood up as a “leader” than a servant as the bible demands ( depending on whether you read the old testament or new) It’s all very confusing.
            3: The “church” is nothing more than a club of likeminded individuals and if you are not “like minded” you are welcome to leave for one that is. The “church” is not going to change simply because you need it to. It is going to change for the very reasons this article purports. It’s loosing the “WAR” against becoming extinct. Imagine if the stock market started loosing investors because it wasn’t paying out dividends in this life but reserving them for the next. How many people would still put their money there? Of course the church needs to evolve. People just aren’t as naive as they once were

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Aho, Thomas. Aho.

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Hi Thomas

            Your 3 reasons about the churches are spot on! The churches of men are just that, there for themselves and all they can get from people. It goes much further than that in the spiritual. It’s really terrible but isn’t without cause. God has predetermined things this way:

            1Co 11:19 MKJV

            (19) For there must also be heresies among you, that the approved ones may be revealed among you.

            God keeps those that are His and they don’t believe hirelings because they know the Lord’s voice:

            Joh 10:1-5 MKJV

            (1) Truly, truly, I say to you, He who does not enter into the sheepfold by the door, but going up by another way, that one is a thief and a robber.

            (2) But he who enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

            (3) The doorkeeper opens to him, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

            (4) And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him. For they know his voice.

            (5) And they will not follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

            You can read more on false Christianity here:



            The true Church of God will never change and hasn’t. God is no respecter of persons. Those He draws to Himself (His Church), He redeems from themselves by the cross and brings them into harmony with Him. Truly, we must die to ourselves as Jesus said to live to Him:

            Mat 10:38-39 MKJV

            (38) And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.

            (39) He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.

            A paper that will explain the cross better, Lord willing:


          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Simon, do you not see that Thomas is aware of every verse you have quoted in your post? Do you not see that he finds them full of craaaaaappp?

          • Simon Mwebaze

            What does His being aware of them have to do with anything, Alethea? Because he may think they’re full of crap, does it make them so? Who made you both God to decide what’s crap and isn’t? You’re opinion counts for nothing before God but woe to you for you careless words!

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            You don’t understand the concept of belief vs. knowledge, do you? Does your belief IN them make them true? I’m not god, Thomas is not god and neither are you. God is what you BELIEVE god to be because we’ve never met god… or Quan Yin, or Shiva, or Lilith, or Adam, or Gaia or……. Woe to yourself for not believing in Zeus!

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Hi Alethea

            I have been meaning to get back to you earlier.

            You say,”You don’t understand the concept of belief vs. knowledge, do you?”

            How do you establish that? Do you know that I don’t? Can you prove it with some facts or is that just your opinion?

            “Does your belief IN them make them true?”

            No, it doesn’t. Our opinions mean nothing to God and hold no water in all things. God’s view of things is different/contrary to men’s.

            Isa 55:8-9 MKJV

            (8) For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says Jehovah.

            (9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

            Rom 8:7-8 MKJV

            (7) because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.

            (8) So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.

            Only through faith which is a GIFT from Him can we see things His way.

            Heb 11:6 MKJV

            (6) But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

            Eph 2:8-9 MKJV

            (8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,

            (9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.

            “I’m not god, Thomas is not god and neither are you.”

            I know that neither Thomas, you (Alethea) nor myself are God. Do you know that you aren’t Alethea? If you do, why do you value your opinion as though its God’s view of things? Why does it seem that your opinion is all that matters? Are you as open minded as you claim? I don’t see your open mindedness.

            “God is what you BELIEVE god to be because we’ve never met god… or Quan Yin, or Shiva, or Lilith, or Adam, or Gaia or…….”

            How do you know that? Are you sure of what you say? Can you show us some facts that God is whom we make Him to be? On the otherhand, I know that idols are what we make them to be. In that case, I would agree with you. Idols aren’t God.

            You admit you haven’t met God, Alethea, so how do you make the assertions you do about Him? How do you have a relationship with the Creator you say by your own words you haven’t met? You contradict yourself.

            How do you know I haven’t met Him, Alethea? Or is this your opinion again?

            I look forward to your response.

          • RalphieD

            careless words?? Nope, just out of line with your beliefs. I can tell Alethea cares very much.

          • Simon Mwebaze

            Hi Ralphie

            Are Alethea’s words not careless according to your beliefs/opinion? How do you judge that they aren’t? How do you know she cares “very much”? By your beliefs?

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Nope. Not careless. Well studied, well read, and well thought out. I have not read only one book, bought what it said, and learned how to barf back up the words when I find a person who does not agree with ‘my true and superior’ dogma.

            Jesus – knocks on door
            Person – who’s there?
            Jesus – it’s Jesus… let me in
            Person – why?
            Jesus – so I can save you
            Person – save me from what?
            Jesus – from what I’m going to do to you if you don’t let me in

          • RN Nutrition

            Where in Scripture are you getting all of this stuff? The Church isn’t listening… it isn’t meeting our needs… ??????? We are the Church!!!!!!!!!!

          • Jody Pussycat

            The Church SHOULD be that way shouldn’t it?

          • JP

            I think it’s right to say that the church needs to look at women’s issues – that is indeed BIG stuff. But I think it’s wrong to say that if people here don’t exclusively discuss that and only that aspect it proves some larger point. The article wasn’t limited to only women’s issues, so a discussion about any of the many points in the article seems appropriate.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Directing my observations to the content of this article – that the trivial seems far more important to the church than the elephant in the room – is not wrong. That is the first thing that occurred on this thread. How to tithe, when to tithe, how much to tithe, who should tithe. All minutia. I’ve seen entire Sundays dedicated to the issues of whether women should be permitted (PERMITTED!) to cut their hair or should wear pants or make-up or whether a person should be baptized backward or forward.

            Just how much time was spent discussing Virginia Moher’s post… you know… the BIG issue… before people dropped it and argued about first fruits?

            When people are searching for a greater knowledge and understanding of god and a relationship with him, to rattle on about these mouse droppings is to fail them in their search. That is what Pavlovitz said, the meat and potatoes of the article, and the power behind his statements. Go ahead and side step it, but that is exactly the point the man made. People are leaving for these reasons.

          • JP

            In my entire life I’ve never heard anyone in any church debating whether women should cut their hair or wear pants. The issues you raised were topical, but so were other issues which is why I responded to your post. To you they may not be issues of importance, but to some they may be genuinely trying to discern God’s will about tithing or other things that to you are trivial. I think the author has just scratched the surface of why people are leaving (and I get it that it’s an blog post and not a book.) I’m glad the article is sensitive to the needs of those that for whatever reason find themselves in the minority view among their own congregation and leave. Why people are leaving (at least in the West – the church is thriving in many parts of the world), is of course way more complex than addressed here.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Well, JP, I have. Sermons on a woman’s place in the church and home are quite numerous.

            Virginia Moher opened up a topic about the church meeting, or not meeting, women’s needs. There were two posts responding to her topic and the tithe issue was raised and expounded upon. On this blog, the issue of tithing IS trivial. Pavlovitz made that point quite succinctly. Here is a woman who has left the church because no one has really addressed her problems. And, she’s stayed away. Isn’t that the point of this blog and her post – looking at the bigger picture?

            Why don’t you address Virginia’s concerns?

          • JP

            Women’s place in the home society, etc. are hugely relevant, as are issues like domestic violence that affect women disproportionally, and that in my view, are not dealt with well in all churches. I was lucky in that I had a pastor who was excellent and compassionate and showed me love and respect in a time where I really needed that. I know from other survivors that is not a universal experience. Those are the type of issues that women are actually dealing with in the faith today, not whether or not they can cut their hair for crying out loud. But pushing those issues forward for discussion, as worthy as that goal is doesn’t mean nobody else can talk about other issues that also affect them personally or that affect the church more generally.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            I did not say that other issues should be ignored. What I am saying is that there is far more discussion about tithing than there is the discussion of women in the church. Virginia’s comments were promptly swept under the rug… which seems to be, according to this article, why people are leaving the church. Their issues are not being addressed. And yes, many denominations have a great deal to say about how a Christian woman should look, dress and conduct herself. That is the trivial stuff of which I am speaking. The church often remains silent when it comes to the spiritual needs of women – focusing instead on the junk.

            Thank you for finally saying something about women’s experiences – including your own.

          • Michael A. Albert

            Well, JP you have been fortunate to NOT have been in those type churches. I have been in them in my early Christian years. Churches full of legalism and condemnation, nothing of which had ANYTHING to do with Scripture other than what was twisted to fit their doctrine! The Church…meaning the people, not a building…is their own worst enemy. Arguing and debating over stupid things that are meaningless! Somewhere along the line Christians got off track. How many denominations do we have now? Funny, but the First Century congregation (there is no word in scripture meaning Church…it is a mistranslation) was called The Way…ONE denomination, so to speak, but one group, one mind, one spirit! And there in lies the problem with today’s denominations! Let me tell you this…I was delivered out of the occult and Witchcraft. I was a card carrying member of the Church of Satan under Anton Levey. We used to love to mock and laugh at Christians for all the reasons that are being posted on here! “If their God is the superior being, then why did he pick such stupid people?” “They have one bible and they can’t agree on what is written in it, yet we have our one bible and EVERYONE agrees on what is written in it! Every member of TCOS agrees on what is written, no matter where you may go in the United States or the world.” “They constantly fight among each other over such minor issues.” “They are constantly hating each other based on the name over their church door!” Etc, blah, blah, blah…
            The fact of the matter is Christians have no clue as to what they look and sound like to non-believers! And Christians wonder why heathens don’t want to come to God or be associated with those who claim to serve Him! Virtually every denomination known today, NEEDS to bring itself into alignment with the Word of God in some form or fashion!

          • RN Nutrition

            Oh my needs aren’t being met….. I’ll quit… sob sob sob… Go to Church and meet the Church’s needs!

          • RN Nutrition

            I love how you say the New Testament Church doesn’t require this or say this and then you quote Old Testament. It’s not our money… it is His.

          • michele

            You are dropping REAL knowledge.. Also gentiles did not pay the “tithe” and there were only TWO occupations that did.

          • Ronald W Robey

            With me, it is not that I do not like to give. It is that I will not financially support any pastor who tells straight-out lies from the pulpit. Many pastors are guilty of lying to the congregation, telling them God requires them to tithe their money, when there is no such command in God’s Holy Word.

            Pastors that teach for doctrine the commands of men do not need financial support… they need to repent of their false doctrine or step down from the pastoral position. Their lying against God and His Word disqualifies them from the sacred office.

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            If they are not qualified for the office and should it ever come about that they are required to step down, there would be at least 50% fewer ‘reverends’ than there are currently.

          • RN Nutrition

            Why would you even go to a church like that? Then financial support of your pastor would not be a problem if you just go to a church where you aren’t being lied to… it seems you people are looking for reasons not to go to church, not to financially support your church, etc… stop this, it is hurting the body of Christ!!! Get to church, a church that speaks true, get involved with edifying instead of destroying.

          • Thomas Everroad

            I thought god was all powerful? What? he doesn’t know how to create his own wealth? Must be a puny god indeed if he needs his worshipers to give him ANYTHING and BTW there is no such thing as a church where you aren’t being “lied to”
            You can’t crack open that black book without immediately reading lies.
            Being a pastor is supposed to be a calling, not a job but just as every passage in that book of fables leads one to the inevitable conclusion that we are worthless with out god every pastor is there to make darned sure we get the message pounded into our heads (for a salary of course)
            Either god is great and doesn’t care about people suffering or he isn’t there at all.
            I hold with the latter.

          • lana broussard

            I find it in treating that you are so angry and untreated in something you don’t believe in. That you spend time arguing about someone who doesn’t “exist” that of itself is contradictory. I do not believe in buddha,or allah,or santa and since i truly have absolute no belief in any of them…I do not spend time reading articles about them…and reading comments about the articles about them…or criticizing or insulting them bc they believe differently. Don’t you see how immature and narrow and ignorant you make yourself look. If u Dont think he is real…why are you so mad at im??? We are content in our “fantasy world” we have hope…and our hope is not of this world. A lot of people who profess Christianity have no clue who Christmas truly was. And they give true followers of Christmas a terrible reputation. But we were never told that Yall would love us. somewhere along the road of your life u obviously were hurt and u blame god and the church. All I can say is I’m sorry. Don’t judge god bc of by people.

          • seeknsanity

            In the Christian world, pointing out the obvious flaw, that belief in God is akin to belief in any of the others you named, is being “angry and upset.”

          • Michael Wall

            I don’t follow your blogs to tell you that there is no real Betty Crocker or that Little Debbie doesn’t really make all those treats.

          • That always leaves me confused too. So many atheists cruise the Youtube Christian videos just to vent their anger & try to make a mockery of belief in God. As you said, why bother??? I agree with your question of Why so angry at someone they don’t believe exists.

          • Savannah Nash

            Pride, they have to have a following, everyone wants to rule the world

          • Roger

            Actually, anger isn’t really part of it, and as for cruising the Christian videos, it’s a form of entertainment. It’s like going to a freakshow where we can shoot spitballs at the idiots.
            Tony and Lana, you both believe in a tall bearded man with the power to do anything, yet he created a flawed product, Human Beings.
            Thomas and I believe in scientific facts and the beauty of logic. We also both like to shoot spitballs at idiots, like you guys. No offense, we’re just childish that way.
            Oh, and Lana, since you are such an authority, kindly inform us, who “truly” was Christ? Ill check back latter for the answer………
            On another note TELL YOUR PRIEST, RABBI, PASTOR, ETC. TO START PAYING TAXES! When your bullshit religious belief no longer affects my logical life, then I will stop pointing out your stupidity. got it?

          • Part of the reason churches get tax exemptions is because they provide so many services for society in general. Schools, hospitals, charities of many types, homeless shelters, drug & alcohol rehab centres, retirement homes etc etc etc. This saves the governments a fortune in having to provide those extra services. I also believe religions that provide no charity should not be tax exempt. Jehovah’s Witnesses come to mind.

          • Sun Tzu

            The so called services offered by the “church” pale by comparison to the harm these cults cause. I will attach some examples that zero in on one of the worst cults out there: Catholicism…..
            . Throughout the world, Catholic bishops have engaged in a systematic, organized effort going back decades to cover up for priests who molest children, pressuring the victims to sign confidentiality agreements and quietly assigning the predators to new parishes where they could go on molesting. Tens of thousands of children have been raped and tortured as a result of this conspiracy of silence.
            2. Strike one: “What did the pope know and when did he know it?” The previous pope, when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was personally implicated in a case from the 1970s in which at least three sets of parents reported that a priest in his diocese had sexually abused their children. In response, Ratzinger assigned the priest to therapy, without notifying law enforcement, and washed his hands of the matter. That priest was back on duty in just a few short days and went on to molest more children.
            3. Strike two: In 1981, again when the current pope was Cardinal Ratzinger, he got a letter from the diocese of Oakland asking him to defrock a priest who had acknowledged molesting two children. Ratzinger ignored this letter, and several followup letters, for four years. Finally, in 1985, he wrote back saying that more time was needed, and that they had to proceed very slowly to safeguard “the good of the Universal Church” in light of “the young age of the petitioner” — by which he meant not the victimized children, but the pedophile priest. (By contrast, when a rogue archbishop ordained married men as priests, he was laicized six days later.)
            4. Strike three: In 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a letter, De Delictis Gravioribus, to all Catholic bishops advising them how to handle accusations of sex crimes by priests. There was no recommendation to contact the police, but rather an instruction for them to report such cases only to the Vatican and tell no one else: “Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret.”
            5. Some church officials, like the American friar Benedict Groeschel, have blamed the epidemic of child molestation on sexually wanton boys who tempt priests into assaulting them.
            6. They threaten to cut off funding for immigrants’ rights advocates because they sometimes work with gay-rights advocates. Preventing immigrants from getting legal and medical aid is less important than ensuring the church isn’t contaminated by even indirect contact with anyone who helps gay people.
            7. In a sign of how ridiculously disproportionate and unhinged the church’s martyrdom complex is, the current pope has compared expanding the rights of women and gay people to the murderous anticlerical violence of the 1930s Spanish civil war.
            8. They’ve used their official UN observer status to team up with Islamic theocracies like Iran and Libya to oppose calls for family-planning services to be made available in the world’s poorest nations.
            9. They’ve gone to desperately poor, AIDS-ravaged regions of Africa to spread the life-destroying lie that condoms don’t prevent transmission of HIV.
            10. In the mid-20th century, they appointed a special papal commission to study whether Catholicism should permit the use of birth control. When the commission almost unanimously recommended that they should, they ignored that recommendation and doubled down on their absolute ban on contraception.

            11. They excommunicated the doctors who performed an abortion on a pregnant 9-year-old who’d been raped by her stepfather.
            12. They did not excommunicate the stepfather.
            13. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t the first: Catholic-run hospitals are willing to let women die rather than get lifesaving abortions, even when a miscarriage is already in progress and no possible procedure could save the fetus.
            14. They refused to provide contraception or abortion to women who were abducted and forced to work as prostitutes, and then filed a lawsuit complaining it was violating their religious freedom when the government took away their contract.
            15. In Poland, they ordered politicians to vote for a law banning IVF and threatened to excommunicate any who didn’t comply.
            16. They were a major source of the pressure on the Komen Foundation that led to its disastrous decision to cut ties with Planned Parenthood.
            17. They’ve announced an inquisition into the Girl Scouts to get to the bottom of its association with morally suspect groups like Doctors Without Borders and Oxfam.
            18. They’ve been one of the major forces attacking Obamacare, filing lawsuits arguing that non-church Catholic employers should be able to decide whether or not employee health insurance plans will cover contraception. This is effectively an argument that a woman’s employer should be allowed to force her to pay more for medical coverage, or even place it out of her reach altogether, based on his religious beliefs.
            19. In Australia, they allegedly derailed a police investigation of an accused pedophile, putting pressure on higher-ups to get an investigating officer removed from the case.
            20. They demanded that Sunday school teachers sign a loyalty oath agreeing to submit “will and intellect” to the proclamations of church leaders.
            21. Some top church officials, including the current pope, have advocateddenying communion to politicians who support progressive and pro-choice political ideas. Notably, although the church also opposes preemptive war and the death penalty, no conservative politician has ever been denied communion on this basis.
            22. They’ve cracked down on American nuns for doing too much to help the poor and not enough to oppose gay marriage, condemning them for displaying a seditious “feminist spirit.”
            23. In Germany, where parishioners pay an officially assessed tax rate to the church, they’ve tried to blackmail people who don’t want to pay the church tax, threatening to fire them from jobs in church institutions. In some cases, if the person opts out but later loses the paperwork, they demand on-the-spot repayment of decades of back taxes.
            24. In America, bishops have compared Democratic officeholders, including President Obama, to Hitler and Stalin and have said that it jeopardizes a person’s eternal salvation if they don’t vote as the bishops instruct them to.
            25. They fight against equal marriage rights for same-sex couples. It’s not enough for the Catholic church hierarchy that they refuse to perform church weddings for gay and lesbian couples; they want to write that prohibition into the civil law and deny marriage equality to everyone who doesn’t fit their religious criteria, and have invested vast amounts of money and effort into doing so. In the 2012 election cycle alone, the church spent almost $2 million in an unsuccessful fight to defeat marriage-equality initiatives in four states.
            26. They’ve compared gay sex to pedophilia and incest and called for it to be forbidden by law, saying that “states can and must regulate behaviors, including various sexual behaviors.”
            27. They’ve shut down adoption clinics rather than consider gay people as prospective parents. The church’s official position, apparently, is that it’s better for children to remain orphans or in foster care than to be placed in a loving, committed same-sex household.
            28. They barred an anti-LGBT bullying group, anti-teen-suicide foundation from a Catholic school ceremony, explaining that the group’s mission is “contrary to the teachings of the Catholic church.”
            29. They told a teenager he wouldn’t be allowed to go through confirmationbecause he posted a pro-gay-rights status message on Facebook, and theyexpelled a preschooler from a private Catholic school because his parents were lesbians.
            30. They have a history of dumping known pedophile priests in isolated, poor, rural communities, where they apparently assumed that local people wouldn’t dare to complain or that no one would listen if they did.
            31. They’ve given huge payouts — as much as $20,000 in some cases — to pedophile priests, to buy their silence and quietly ease them out of the priesthood, after specifically denying in public that they were doing this.
            32. When the Connecticut legislature proposed extending statute-of-limitations laws to allow older child-abuse cases to be tried, the bishops ordered a letter to be read during Mass instructing parishioners to contact their representatives and lobby against it.
            33. To fight back against and intimidate abuse-survivor groups like SNAP, the church’s lawyers have filed absurdly broad subpoenas demanding the disclosure of decades’ worth of documents.
            34. In the Netherlands, some boys were apparently castrated in church-run hospitals after complaining to the police about sexual abuse by priests.
            35. When a Catholic official from Philadelphia, William Lynn, was charged with knowingly returning predator priests to duty, his defense was to blame those decisions on his superior, Cardinal Anthony Bevilacqua, thus acknowledging that the corruption reaches to the highest levels of the church.
            36. When confronted with hundreds of complaints about child-raping priests spanning decades, a Dutch cardinal used the same “we knew nothing” excuse once given by Nazi soldiers. Several months later, it was reported that this same cardinal had personally arranged to move a pedophile priest to a different parish to shield him from accusations.
            37. In one case, Mother Teresa successfully persuaded the church to return a suspected pedophile priest to duty because he was a friend of hers. Eight additional complaints of child abuse were later lodged against him.
            38. In yet another case, they appointed a priest with a history of child molestation to a board that advises the church on what to do when they get reports of priests molesting children.
            39. And after all this, they’ve had the audacity to plead for money and ask parishioners to pick up the tab for legal costs and settlements.
            40. They abducted tens of thousands of babies from unwed mothers who gave birth in Catholic-run hospitals all over the world throughout the 20th century, forcing drugged or helpless women to give their newborn children up for adoption against their will.
            41. They tried to have the Indian skeptic Sanal Edamuruku charged with blasphemy and imprisoned for debunking a claim of a miraculous weeping statue.
            42. They publicly supported the Russian Orthodox church’s decision to have the punk band Pussy Riot charged and imprisoned for blasphemy.
            43. Their finances are a disorganized mess, lacking strong accounting controls and clear internal separations, which means parishioners who give to the church can have no assurance of what the money will be used for. According to an investigation by the Economist, funds meant for hospitals, cemeteries and priests’ pensions have been raided to pay legal fees and settlements in several diocesan bankruptcies.
            44. They’ve said in public that the sexist prohibition on women priests is an infallible part of Catholic dogma, and hence can never be changed.
            45. They’ve silenced priests who call for the ordination of women and other desperately needed reforms, exhorting them to instead show “the radicalism of obedience.”
            46. They’ve excommunicated at least one priest for advocating the ordination of women.
            47. They lifted the excommunication of an anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying bishop who also thinks women shouldn’t attend college or wear pants.
            48. When it comes to the question of who’s financially responsible for compensating the victims of sex abuse, they argue that priests aren’t employees and therefore the church bears no responsibility for anything they do.
            49. They canonized Mother Teresa for doing little more than offering a squalid place for people to die. Outside observers who visited her “Home for the Dying” reported that medical care was substandard and dangerous, limited to aspirin and unsterilized needles rinsed in tap water, administered by untrained volunteers. The millions of dollars collected by Mother Teresa and her order, enough to build many advanced clinics and hospitals, remain unaccounted for.
            50. They announced that voluntary end-of-life measures, such as terminal patients’ directives for when they wish to have a feeding tube removed, won’t be respected at Catholic hospitals.

          • Sun Tzu

            So you see Tony, non-believers have every reason and every right to pass comments, offensive as some my seem, regarding “cults” that directly affect their lives, be it financially, ( as a physician, I provide free services, including surgery, without “tax exempt” status…….imagine that!), or by endangering their way of life, and safety. Laugh, smirk, smile if you will. It was only a few decades ago, when the Rwandan Genocide ( catholic priests murdered native Tutus) occurred. It is ever apparent that Islam is a sadistic, hateful, murdering cult that practices it’s vile ways, even in this country, at this very moment.
            Wolves and wolves in sheep clothing……..all religions. Who needs a church, God is within you…think about it.

          • Judy007

            Do you know a born again person who belongs to the Catholic church? Just asking.

          • Sun Tzu

            Judy007, you seem like a genuine good person. I have no intention of trying to sway you from your belief and faith. I will say, however, you don’t need to follow any fairy tale or belong to any team to know good from evil. Look within yourself. You don’t need the help of any pastor, rabbi, priest, iman….In fact, they may actually lead you astray.
            You don’t need another soul, just your soul, to find your peace, and possibly…God.

          • Judy007

            Hi Sun Tzu, you spoke of the Roman Catholic church and boy oh boy, do YOU have a point. Thing is, all my friends who became born again christians, came out of the Catholic church. They said there is nothing in that church that resembles biblical teaching. In fact they are taught to believe in “the church”?? My opinion is that it’s just part of the system, And you’re right of course, many of the massive Money churches are also, if you think about their teachings, more of the world and part of the system. Christ did say there are wolves who came in among you. In the end people will ALWAYS disappoint you. Even a GOOD person will irritate you eventually. We only have the bible and we just love people, but heck they can be wrong.

          • Sun Tzu

            Judy007. Follow your heart, no man can know your soul better than you, no matter what they claim.

          • Judy007

            Have you seen what the bible said about the mockers and scoffers? It does nothing for us. We by our nature need to love you and pray for you. It’s good that you’re visiting.

          • Roger

            Have you seen what the bible said about slavery?

            In the New Testament, Jesus frequently refers to slaves in his parables, the witty stories that marked his most distinctive teaching style. He never addresses slavery as an institution, though unfortunately one of the parables assumes that beating a slave is acceptable (Luke 12:47-48). More controversial is the apostle Paul, often blamed for promoting or condoning slavery.

            Doesn’t that make you feel all warm and bubbly inside, Judy007?

          • Judy007

            That makes sense. He said we are in the world but not of the world. Thus he simply mentioned what people should behave like while in that system. That system (the kings of this WORLD, as opposed to THE EARTH) was offered to Him in the Wilderness. Satan would not have offered it to Christ if it didn’t belong to him (satan) first. Even a soldier came to Christ and asked him what to do and Christ said stay in your work “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages…”
            My own opinion is: Whose job is above another’s in any case. Even a sportsman competes with an opponent – how does that constitute love towards your neighbour. Even through sport you want to demolish him. A broken world indeed. Christ even said to give our leftovers of today’s food to our Servants and they will love you for it. (we ARE in the world system for now)

          • Jack Hays

            Wow very contradictory.. I’ve seen god and yes he is real..WORD

          • Judy007

            You’re right. Jesus did say They will hate you for my name’s sake. And what you wrote here proves it. The atheists are never fighting with “other religions” not even on muslim pages, but open a christian page and the mockers and scoffers come in their droves.

          • Judy007

            Aww but he DOES! He said the EARTH and the fullness of it belongs to him for us to enjoy. The world however, belongs squarely to satan (the kingdoms and political systems, otherwise Satan wouldn’t have been able to offer it to Jesus in the wilderness.

          • Roger

            Thomas Everroad,
            careful, you will upset the ignorant, fearful and easily lead.

          • Jack Hays

            If god was not here or there, we would certainly know about it.. I totally understand the original post and i say if you know there’s a problem with people not attending church, do somthing about it and go to the source and help …

          • Sewingbird

            Dear Thomas I came across this article and wanted to view the comments. I am sorry for what ever hurt you have or disillusioned with this life. I do know there is a real God and He loves you more than you can imagine. You are valuable in His sight enough for his son Jesus to die for you.There is not one soul on this planet who is a good person worthy of heaven We are all sinners but Jesus is a redeemer. I totally surrendered my life to Him in 2014. I knew there was no one or no thing on this earth that cared or could help me. I knew God was my only answer. He says in His word “If you seek me you will find me.” Whole verse Jeremiah 29:13. He will never leave you nor forsake you. He will strengthen you in bad times. He is like trying to describe the wind to someone who has never known the wind or felt it. All I can say
            to you and what He wants me to say to you is He loves you! No matter what you have done that you think He may not want you He loves you and is waiting to give you a new life. I hope you have a wonderful week!

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            JESUS IS THE WAY…..NOT US

            Old Testament

            “Tithe” means a tenth or 10 percent. The Old Testament law required that
            a tenth of all produce, flocks, and cattle be given to support the
            Levites (the priestly class in ancient Israel). In turn, the Levites
            were to give a tenth of that for support of the high priest (Leviticus
            27:30-33, Numbers 18:21-28).

            An additional tithe, collected every three years, was to be used to
            meet the needs of the Levites, foreigners, orphans and widows.
            (Deuteronomy 26:12-13). Additional tithes were taken for festival

            In addition, everyone was to be generous with those in need:

            If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of
            the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or
            tightfisted toward your poor brother. Rather be openhanded and freely
            lend him whatever he needs. ( Deuteronomy 15:7-8)

            New Testament

            The New Testament does not give any specific rules about tithing, and
            most aspects of the Old Testament Law do not apply to Christians. (See
            What Does the Bible Say About the Old Testament Law?)

            However, Jesus made it clear that we are obligated to be generous to those in need (Matthew 25:31-46).

            Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:42)

            Giving is to be done cheerfully, rather than as an obligation (2
            Corinthians 9:6-7), and not for the purpose of public recognition
            (Matthew 6:1-4). The amount to give is not necessarily ten percent
            (Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22, 21:1-4, Hebrews 13:16, 1 John 3:17).
            Generous giving is an acknowledgment that everything we have is a gift
            from God, and is to be used in His service (Luke 12:33, Acts 20:35, 1
            Timothy 6:17-19, James 1:17, 1:27, 1 Peter 4:10).

            Rather than give a certain amount as an obligation, Christians are
            urged to share generously of whatever talents, abilities and wealth God
            has entrusted to them:

            We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a
            man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If
            it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it
            is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of
            others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern
            diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. ( Romans

            There is nothing in the Bible saying we should give 10% of your income to any church. There is not one scripture in your Bible relating to money otherwise you are using the WORLD SYSTEM….It said bring all the food to the STOREHOUSE to feed the WIDOWS and the POOR…..THAT IS YOUR TITHES. Lets get it right Church! God said that He will provide for all our NEEDS not some but ALL our needs….True!….Absolutely. Jesus said go into the world but do not be of the WORLD….If you are lead by the SPIRIT you can’t FAIL….Not by might, not by power but by my SPIRIT said the Lord….Amen.

          • Dr Tai Rupuha

            Remember when Jesus said to one of His Disciple….Here! go and pay the Temple Taxes….Now where did that Money come from….NOT from His wallet…But out of the fishes Mouth….How come?……GOD supplied the MONEY….Amen…..Just believe…..Amen…. As I said you can’t trust the World System…BLess you.

          • michele

            Absolutely !

          • cbs phd

            Spot on my friend. Spot On!

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Thanks. I’ve seen so much of it and it saddens me.

          • Edwin

            According to all you say, Alethea, you KNOW the TRUTH. But then you also say IT cannot be known. Or you go a little farther and say both the truth and God are what we believe they are, yet you counter what others believe – contradictory!

            My point is the TRUTH can be known, but so far, it is foreign to you and you are not open to knowing it, not even close. You have made up your mind, and it is your God-given right for now.

            You seem to invite others to share in your agnosticism and are glad when they agree with you. If there is no absolute truth to be known by us, according to your thining, is that an absolute truth? Wouldn’t you consider there’s something else? I think not, for now…

          • Edwin

            Sorry, I meant, “according to your thinking…”
            I’d like to add I see you assume because organized churches are wrong, and they are, it is impossible to find or receive the Truth from another Source. Isn’t this true?

          • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

            Edwin, please re-read my posts. Over and over I state that I do not know the truth, but I do know what I believe – just as everyone else who has posted. No one can know the truth about what happens after one dies… because they aren’t dead and unless you BELIEVE that spirits can contact you, they can’t tell you what happens. If all posters here were honest, they would admit that they have based their beliefs on what is in the bible and what they’ve been taught or whatever other method. But, they don’t, and I don’t, KNOW it to be true. That’s why it’s called ‘faith’ rather than ‘accuracy’

            What’s wrong with thanking someone when they have the cajones to stand up and say, ‘I don’t believe this.’? As the Christians in ancient Rome would stand up and say, ‘I don’t believe in Apollo, I believe …. such and such’, don’t you think that other Christians would say thank you, or well said, or hooray, or something along those lines? Don’t you agree with others and state so?

            I’ve never invited anyone to share in my agnosticism. I’ve invited them to step out of the narrowness and learn about the world they live on. Just as those who have ‘invited’ me, mostly under the idea eternal punishment, to go back to church, believe THIS because it’s true, you’ve made up your mind so you are lost, you just haven’t searched enough and on and on. I’ve studied NUMEROUS faiths and religions… and I base my BELIEFS on what I’ve learned, what I’ve seen, evidence and rationality. I can tell you a bit about how gravity works, I’ve never actually ‘seen’ gravity, but I BELIEVE gravity to be real enough that I decline to stand under an anvil someone is holding up and is ready to let go of. I KNOW the TRUTH that it will be a mite ouchyI BELIEVE that Adam and Eve in the garden and ‘original sin’ is farcical and merely a way to frighten people into submission. I don’t believe that Zeus ever existed. If you would choose to be rhetorical about absolute truth, we could go on for days. No thanks.

            I BELIEVE and see plenty of evidence that you are stuck in the bible, “… unwilling to consider there’s something else.” If you started studying the world’s religions, faiths, dogmas and tenets, do you BELIEVE god will see it as wicked? Stepping over the line thus endangering your soul? That you might receive the TRUTH from another source?

            As far as religions go, I find, and see PLENTY of evidence, that there are similarities between them. For example:

            Christianity… “You don’t believe what I believe and what’s in MY book, and what the TRUTH is, therefore you will not enjoy eternal life in heaven. You will be judged, die and be punished forever and ever! You will suffer for your heresy! You’ve been told and warned”

            Islam… “You don’t believe what I believe and what’s in MY book and what the TRUTH is, therefore you will not enjoy paradise. You will die because I’m going save allah the trouble. You have been judged and will suffer for your heresy! You’ve been told and warned.”

          • Edwin

            Alethea, you mention some good points in your reasoning, and I agree; most people only believe what they have been told to believe. Would you consider that includes you, whether you were directly told or by books and other sources? I mean nobody comes with original ideas; you just grow into a certain way of thinking and believing, by reading and/or experiencing.

            Now according to your definition of faith, you have faith in what you believe, since you acknowledge you don’t know it to be TRUE, but you still believe it. But that is not faith; that’s assumption, even as it is an assumption for you to say I only have my Bible.

            I grew up hearing from the Bible, but as soon as I was in High School, I started to get interested in other subjects and philosophies, several teachings and doctrines of the world such as New Age, Induism, methaphysics, positive thinking, various mentalities and sects within Christianity, UFO’s mysteries, etc.

            All those things left me empty. I only felt there was something else, but I didn’t know what it was. So I thought I needed to become a “true Christian,” the type you describe, and it appeared to work for some time until I discovered it all was a farce, like you rightly have found out, although I’m not sure what experience you had. I even became “a pastor,” thinking I had it made, but thank God, my eyes were opened to my falsehood, not by a book, but by the true Jesus Christ, Whom you think is a myth, and I have been set free from all religious systems who claim to have God with them.

            Christianity as you know it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, except they use His Name for their own gain. I know that first hand. The true Jesus, Who lives and communicates with whom He wants, has never planned to torment people eternally, not at all. Men, however, are bound to destruction, doing their own things, insisting in being independent of their Creator, thus reaping much torment, for the time being and then some.

            But the torment of our race won’t be forever; it has an end, at the appointed time for each person and generation. This world is not all there is. Of course, you won’t believe what I say, but it doesn’t matter. Like I told you, for now, you need to take the stand you have taken, but there will come a time for you to face your Creator, not simply for punishment or shame sake like you surmise, but for reality, final deliverance from your vanity as a mere mortal, and that will happen to each and everyone of us, thank God.

          • RN Nutrition

            The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends, that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. The New Testament nowhere designates a percentage of income a person should set aside, but only says gifts should be “in keeping with income” (1 Corinthians 16:2). Some in the Christian church have taken the 10 percent figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving.

            The New Testament talks about the importance and benefits of giving. We are to give as we are able. Sometimes that means giving more than 10 percent; sometimes that may mean giving less. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church. Every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom in the matter of participating in tithing and/or how much to give (James 1:5). Above all, all tithes and offerings should be given with pure motives and an attitude of worship to God and service to the body of Christ. “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

            Read more:

          • Dr Tai Rupuha


            Bible does not anywhere indicate that tithing is applicable or expected in our time at all. It was a system which was brought in following the exodus from Egypt and the forming of the children of Israel into a nation of their own.

            Their nation was divided into 12 tribes, and 11 of these tribes grew crops, had animals, inherited land etc. The twelfth tribe, Levi, were the priests and administrators of the nation, and had no land, animals, crops etc, so the 11 tribes had to give the tribe of Levi 10% of their income. This mathematically works out that they were then all equal, because from this part which was given to the tribe of Levi, they still had to make their own offering of a tenth to God, the same as the other tribes had to. (see Numbers 18:25-39)

            The tithing to give to the Levites was basically playing the same part as our taxes do today – our taxes pay for the everyday administration of our country. The Levites did everything from attending the tabernacle/temple, judging disputes, dignosing illnesses, being the judicial system etc.

            Tithing was part of the old law, or what is sometimes referred to as ‘the law of Moses’. It was given specifically to the nation of Israel, God’s chosen people:

            Ezekiel 20:10-12 “Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the desert.
            I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them.
            Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.”

            The law of Moses was a law of sacrificing to God for the atonement of sins. This was looking forward to the time when the one true sinless Lamb, Jesus Christ, would be offered to atone for the sins committed by Adam and Eve. When Jesus came, and as a sinless sacrifice for our sinful nature, he fulfilled the old law by his sacrifice and brought in a new one, referred to as ‘the law of Christ’. The old law was then complete, it was obsolete.

            Romans 10:44 “Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”

            Tithing was part of the old law which was done away with. We cannot continue with parts of the law which we choose, the old law was gone. The Jews continued with the old law because they refused to recognize the true position of Jesus Christ, that he was he was God’s only son. So if we keep on with parts of the old law, we are doing the same. We as Christians have never been under the old law, it was only following the rejection of Christ by the Jews that we, as ‘Gentiles’ were given the opportunity to be part of God’s plan.

            Money was definitely donated for the purpose of supporting very poor members in Jerusalem, but never to pay to a leader so that became his income.

            Voluntarily helping someone, as the Macedonian brethren did for Paul, is quite different from tithing. We should be aware of others needs, and when we see the opportunity to help privately, then we should do so. The message of the New Testament is that our offerings in God’s service should be voluntary and that no amount is set, and that the accumulation of wealth, even by a church, is not right. Rather we should give to the poor.

            One of the very great dangers of churches demanding tithes is the accompanying perceived threat or fear that acceptance by God depends on the amount of money given. That acceptance is something money cannot buy. Often pastors of churches who tithe are very wealthy people – at the expense of their congregations, yet they often claim that they are wealthy because they have been blessed by God! Yet Paul could say, “I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well……I have not been a burden to you.” (2 Corinthians 12:16).

          • James

            To those who believe pastors Bishop’s and Priests should not be paid. Think about this scenario. Pastor Bob my husband’s having his funeral at 1 Wednesday afternoon could you do that service please. I’m sorry Mary I have to work and I have taken a lot of time off for funerals weddings baptisms and what not and I just don’t have the time we will just have to freeze him and do it at our earliest convenience God bless you Mary. Or Pastor Bob my husband is in the hospital dying could you go pray for him he desperately needs salvation. I’m sorry Mary I’ve taken a lot of time off for hospital visits funerals weddings and baptisms tell him he will just have to hang on till this evening when I get off work. I could go on and on but I don’t think it’s necessary.

          • jozie

            Ridiculousness ! Where is it written that only a Pastor can direct a funeral or wedding for that matter. Where in scripture does it state a pastor is to be head and over everything … nowhere! Christ is the head of his church.
            This is all made up by men who are high minded and longing for adoration and recognition … we don’t even need pastors really, much less pay them an exorbitant amount while many others suffer by doing so.
            Go get a job ! Pay taxes … live beside your fellow brother don’t live off the backs of them !
            I say folks like you are in extreme denial of the truths in scripture who distort and twist in order to make a calling of God a career … it’s not
            It’s servanthood not servicehood …

          • michele

            Exactly… This is the churches “cash
            cow”.. What we see the modern church doing IS NOT scriptural.. Let me
            ask you this… There are only TWO occupations that gave the “tithe”.
            What were they? Did gentiles give a “tithe”?.. Was the “tithe” money?
            How often was the tithe given? Who collected the”tithe” ?. Hosea 4:6..My
            people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected
            knowledge, I will also reject thee”…. Church goers are not studying
            His word for themselves. They rely on the lying pastor to interpret it
            and won’t do what the Bereans did and for this they too shall be judged.

          • ichuck7

            You are the very person this article is talking about. You are right, they are wrong. Well done. Come to church! Here’s our plate of superiority and judgement.

          • Matt Brown

            Tithes were also paid to the Levites, not the church…

          • Gary Verwoerd

            Tithing and firstfruits aren’t the same thing. I can understand why you’d think that though, as that is what is taught over most pulpits. There are 4 main types of “giving”: firstfruits, tithes, alms, and offerings. Search it out, it’s an awesome study 🙂

          • beaker55

            Tithing has nothing to do with money.

          • Albert Estrada

            Laura I find it so funny that folks who obviously haven’t read their Bible like to quote it in ignorance. Grim engineer and Dot, are probably quoting what they’ve heard from other people. I’m a tither, and so many women make up the Church. Men need to step up in it more.

          • RalphieD

            There is a minimum that it takes to cover the basic necessities. It’s irresponsible to your family to give funds away if there aren’t enough to cover the basics first. This is a crucial thing that churches and republicans seem to fail to understand. The same with the tax structure. If the very rich pay a higher percentage on their 2nd million, that doesn’t actually hurt them at all. Might not like it, but their needs are already covered. In your response to GrimmEngineer’s excellent comment, using the word “Leftovers” is an insulting way of chastising the poor. Not WJWD.

          • Drake

            Not technically… Tithing was for the ancient israelites…Thats one of the confusions Christians tend to have today. Christians tithe, when reality is Tithing was apart of an agreement God made with Ancient israel and no one else. That means all of us Gentiles, were never technically “REQUIRED” by law to give 10% of our ( food and grain etc which is what a tithe by law was). In the N.T. we are to give more technically,( because thats the new testament example of giving in Acts:2 (they gave all and no one had need) but….Yeah, Never feel “Required” to “tithe” or give a tenth of your money. We aren’t ancient Israel, and tithe wasn’t really money any-way..Hey i know it’s a hard pill to swallow and i’m not trolling you just wanted to give some perspective.

          • You are incorrect. Read Nehemiah 10:37-38 and you will find that firstfruits and tithes were not the same in the Bible.

            Also notice that in Leviticus 27:32-32, the tithed livestock were the tenth ones to pass under the rod, not the first.

            John Macarthur’s church operates solely on free will offerings.

            Check out this article I wrote several months back. Get your Bible and be as the Bereans. Search the Scriptures to make sure they say what I claim they say.

            What preachers call tithes today is nothing like that which God’s Word says concerning His holy tithe.

            Whose Command Are You Bowing To?
            by Ronald W Robey

            In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, the tithe was only of the crops, flocks and herds. (Numbers 18:21-28; Leviticus 27:30-33) Today, it is taught that God requires our money to be tithed. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

            In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, only the Levites were authorized to receive the yearly tithe. (Numbers 18:24-26) On the third year the tithe was kept in the tither’s city to feed the widows, the orphans, the Levites that were living in the tither’s city, and the foreigner that was visiting the city. (Deuteronomy 14:22-23, 28-29) Every seventh year, there was no tithe required. (Leviticus 25:4,20) Today, churches teach a weekly tithe with no instruction to keep the tithe in your own community, nor is there a rest from the tithe every seventh year. Pastors of the Church teach that the Church can receive it. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

            In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, the tithe was only required of those who owned land on which one could plant gardens or orchards, or breed livestock on. Men who did not own gardens, orchards or livestock were not required to tithe. (Deuteronomy 14:22) Today, the Church teaches God requires all members of the congregation to tithe. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

            In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, only Israelites were required to tithe. (Leviticus 27:30-34; Psalms 147:19-20) The Levites could not accept tithes from anyone who was not of the nation of Israel. (Numbers 18:26) Today, Church members all over the world are told to tithe. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

            In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, firstfruits and the tithe were separate (Nehemiah 10:37-38; 12:44) Today, the Church teaches that tithes and firstfruits are the same thing. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

            In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, the tithe was of the increase of crops, flocks & livestock. (Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 14:22) Today, Churches teach that 10% of your paycheck is to be tithed. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

            Contrary to the popular teaching, God is not going to curse you if you don’t tithe your money. Many a preacher will stand behind the pulpit and preach that Malachi 3:8-10 is a warning to their congregations that they will receive a curse if they don’t tithe their money. Since God’s Word defines what the tithe was, how can preachers say it is something different? How can the members of the congregation agree that the tithe is something other than what God’s Holy Word declares it to be? Brethren, the tithe in Malachi 3 was of the crops. God says bring it in the storehouse. The storehouse was rooms encircling the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (1 Kings 6:5-10) And God told the Priests who had stolen the tithes to return the tithes. If they would, He would open the windows of Heaven, (remember the first time the windows of Heaven are mentioned in the Bible? God made it rain upon the Earth) and He would pour out a blessing that the people would not be able to receive. He would rebuke the devourer (the locust) for their sake. Folks, God was speaking of abundance of crops as a blessing for tithing of the crops. God’s tithe was not money then, nor has it ever been.

            Brethren, if you want to please God with your money, give as the Apostle Paul instructed… as you purpose in your heart. (2 Corinthians 9:7) Don’t give grugdingly, but rather willingly and cheerfully.

            But regardless if you give 10% of your money, it is not tithes according to the Word of God. Tithes were only of the crops, flocks, and herds. What you are giving when you give money is a contribution.
            There is not one instance of the Apostle’s teaching the Gentile Churches to tithe their money in the Word of God. As a matter of fact, when the Jerusalem Council met as recorded in Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council wanted the Gentile Believers to be circumcised, AND to keep the Law of Moses.” (v.5) The tithe was one of the laws found within the Law of Moses.

            What did James tell the Council that day? It seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and to us that no greater burden be laid upon the Gentile Believers than these necessary things: to abstain from blood, and from things strangled, and from idols, and from fornication. He ended with “if ye do these things, ye do well.” (vv.28-29)

            One would think that the Holy Ghost would have told James to teach the Gentile Churches that they were to tithe. But according to the Word of God, the tithe was not a necessary thing required of the Gentiles.

            So how are we to see to the financial needs of the Church if we don’t tithe? By giving cheerfully and willingly. Freewill contributions, not of compulsion or necessity. God loves a cheerful giver.

            If you purpose in your heart to give 10% of your money, great! But since God’s Word tells us what the tithe was, and who was required to tithe, your 10% of your money is not God’s tithe. It is a contribution. When God’s Word says His holy tithe is agriculture but the preacher says it is money, God is right and the preacher is wrong.

            The tithe of the congregation was not taken to the Temple/Tabernacle by the people. It was taken to the Levites in the farming communities, who in turn took a tithe of the tithe they received to the Temple/Tabernacle. (Nehemiah 10:37-38) That’s right, only 1% of the original tither’s property went to the House of God,… not 10%. And it was the Levite who was responsible for taking the tithe to the House of God, not the children of Israel.

            Study it out folks. That which is preached as “God’s tithe” today is not the tithe instituted by God. Not even close to that which God instituted. It is totally foreign to the Word of God.

            Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek? Yes, that was prior to the Law. But that does not make tithing an eternal principle. Abram had concubines too. Is that an eternal principle? Abram married his sister. Is that an eternal principle? After all, it was before the Law.

            Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek was not of his own property. That which he tithed he did not consider his own. He told Bera, the king of Sodom, that he had promised God he would not keep any of the spoils of war for himself. So he was not tithing his own property, but the property of others.

            Abram’s tithe an eternal principle? Hardly. That is, unless we are to tithe other people’s property.

            Jacob’s tenth? Not a good example of an eternal principle. Jacob vowed a vow to give a tenth of all that God would give him, yes. But that vow was in context of WHAT God said He would give Jacob. A careful study of Genesis 28 will reveal that Jacob’s vow had to do with land, not money.

            Jacob made that vow with conditions attached. And one of those conditions was not met until nearly 21 years after Jacob made the vow.

            If Jacob’s vow is an example we are to follow, then we can bargain with God. Tell Him if He meets certain demands first, then we will give a tenth of all He has promised to give us.

            A careful and prayerful study of the Word of God will reveal to the reader that the tithe taught today is not what God’s Word says about God’s holy tithe. Preachers are falsely teaching a man-made command as if it is a doctrine ordained by God.

            Matthew 15:9. But in vain they do worship me; teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

          • Wanda Mcmillon

            I always thought tithing was from money that you worked for and made and paid your tenth right off the top not the check you get when you can’t work anymore.

          • TheRightReverend

            There is no mandate to tithe. For clear understanding on what the tithe used to be, read Deuteronomy 14. The tithe was never money or anything equivalent to money. New testament giving is from the heart with no mandated amount. For God loves a cheerful giver.

          • Lisa Syder

            Tithing first appeared in the Bible when Abraham gave one-tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek so it wasnt even his first fruit he gave ten percent of the spoils the spoils was what he took from the enemy , but pastors dont preach that and so in the new testament Jesus said be a cheerful giver thats what I do and I dont believe any pastor should live or drive better then the people in the pews ,,,,thats why people stop giving and stop going to church .

          • Patricia Anne Norlingpaddis

            After Jesus was resurrected and the NT church began, nowhere were we taught to tithe. Its been taken out of the law and used in the church. Gods not happy about it. We give…freely , secretly, and to whom the Holy Spirit leads us to give to; we give out of our abundance when it is in our hearts to give.. Between me and God and its secret

          • AyeRolle

            Tithing is an Old Testament requirement, and a New Testament option. And you’re wrong about tithing the net. They gave back to God first. As Proverbs 3:9 says, “Honor the Lord from your wealth, and from the first of all your produce.” (NASB) Again, this was under the Law (OT).

            However, the New Testament is actually closer to your line of thinking. The instruction we find in the New Testament about giving is voluntary, and based on ability. 2 Corinthians 9:7 says, “Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” In chapter 8:12-13 Paul writes, “12 For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.13 For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality”.

            There should be joy in giving, not compulsion. I would steer clear of any church that demands a tithe.

            I would have no problem with a paid preacher/pastor. I don’t think they should be enriched unjustly, or beyond reason, at the expense of the church, but they do have a right to be paid. The Bible says several times the preacher/pastor has a right to be paid. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 9 for starters. Paul explained the right to be paid, but chose for himself, to not exercise that right.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Unfortunately you do not have access to further scriptural references which clarify these teachings. It’s ok.

          • AyeRolle

            Unfortunately, your “further scriptural references” are hogwash. And it’s not ok.

          • GrimmEngineer

            I love washing hogs.

          • Tony Cota

            The blasphemous book of mormon?

          • GrimmEngineer

            More hate from a supposed follower of Christ.

          • Weegorgeous


          • Weegorgeous

            Oops. .. and I can’t delete

          • justme

            Did not your founder make the claim that that supposed follower of Christ was an abomination before the eyes of God? Do you not make the claim that that supposed follower of Christ has a wrong understanding? An incomplete gospel? That his Bible is inaccurate? That the KJV specifically (based on your previous comments) is blasphemous and hogwash and cherry picked and …

            But you are the one always telling others to remove the beam from their eyes?

          • justme

            Unfortunately, neither do you. I will pray earnestly that you come to see this. Remember, you should not be afraid to seek out ideas that challenge your beliefs. If your beliefs are true then they will withstand any test or lies.

            That is why so many Christians do actually investigate the claims of the LDS church and examine them against Christian beliefs and scripture. It is a shame that more LDS members do not agree with this. I would urge you, in the privacy of your own home if you like, seek out sites that claim to debunk the LDS faith. If they are wrong, as you think they are, then you should come away from them that much stronger in your own faith and with a better understanding of what misconceptions others have of your faith. You might also learn how to better defend your faith by examining how others are attempting to defeat it.

          • Ronald W Robey

            Both you and Grimm are wrong. Grimm is wrong for teaching God requires tithes. You are wrong for teaching tithes are firstfruits. Nehemiah 10:37-38 reveals that tithes and firstfruits were not the same.

          • Nanny

            I do not agree with your interpretation of the tithe. Scripture tells us 10% as an example. Now, consider the example of the Widows mite in scripture. She gave all she had! Consider that these acts represent acts of Faith. There is a great gift that is
            Received when you tithe even though you don’t see how your budget will cope. Consider that all that you have in this life, is a gift, relationships, family, even a job, are there as gifts from God.
            So, if it weren’t for God, would you have anything? No. So, actually, all He’s asking is that in Faith, you give Him a small token
            Of that back in the form of the tithe. The church is the steward of those tithes. The most important part of the whole transaction though, is FAITH. God knows your needs, even more than you do. I have lived this, my husband and I decided to tithe, regardless of our situation. Not long after making the decision, I
            Was laid off from my job. Talk about a test of faith! But, we never
            Wanted for anything. God keeps his promises! When I was finally
            Called back to work we increased our tithe. I feel that we have received far more than we will ever realize, until we go home to the Lord, and all is revealed.
            Regardless, everything, everything is based on FAITH. Denominations aside, study His word, ask for His revelations as you seek Him with a contrite heart, He will reveal Himself to you. That is the promise He has given each and everyone who
            Seeks Him. I believe God is the only One capable of keeping
            A promise. Mans word is chaff on the wind.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Unfortunately, you do not understand the tithe as practiced for thousands of years. Tithe literally means “tenth.” And yes, I can point to scriptural references for it to be paid on the increase. Do you also think that businesses pay taxes on gross receipts?And yes, the widows mite story is an example to the pharisees who would mock someone who gave so little, yet so much. But first remove the beam from thine own eye before the mote from thy brothers. And if you are paying a tenth of your gross receipts then good for you. Unfortunately this is still bad accounting and not the intention of the tithe. Can you imagine if a business owner had to pay tax on his gross receipts even when operating at a loss?

          • Nanny

            You sir missed the point entirely. Do not quote scripture when you
            Obviously are more interested in touting your know it all attitude. From my prospective, in my experience in my personal
            Walk with Christ, FAITH is all that is required. Test His faithfulness to provide for you on all your needs. The Tithe
            Is one of those things that proves his faithfulness! Be it 2cents
            Given weekly or more, He knows what is in your heart and what your needs are. It is to be from your first fruits, the best you have
            Period! not what you have left over!!!! Give back what you can,
            Prove His Trustworthiness not to let you down, increase your giving, test your Faith, He will never let you down! You will be blessed beyond belief!! What I’m telling you, is what I personally
            Have experienced. God is true to his word. If you truly want to know what he can do, test you faith! He promises never to leave nor forsake us. Try him! Give Him your best. He has already given you His!!

          • GrimmEngineer

            It’s ok if we do not agree. I will respect your opinion with love.

          • justme

            Are you seriously attempting to compare the practice of paying taxes to a government with the practice of tithing?

            The Bible and the BOM (along with other LDS scriptures) very clearly state that tithes should be based on all that you posses.

            If you feel that your god is not worthy of a portion of all that you posses, that is fine. However, as a Christian I know that ALL things already belong to God and come as a gift from Him. Because of this I am not going to be the least bit stingy or resentful of cheerfully giving to His works from my entire gross income. I would also point out that arguing reasons for why you would not tithe on any portion of your income seems to indicate a bit of resentment and ownership over that portion of your income. As a Christian we know that we are to give with a cheerful heart, are there different standards for LDS giving?

            Other than the fact that tithing is mandatory in order to be an LDS member in good standing that is…

          • Jody Pussycat

            Why does God need money? Jesus surely would have been disgusted by Super Churches and politics involved.

          • 10%er

            I don’t know where you get not owing tithes. Even the widow tithed her two pennies. You tithe out of your love for what God has provided to you. You are just the steward – He is the master. He owns it all.

          • GrimmEngineer

            It’s ok for you not to understand. I won’t judge you for it.

          • Tony Cota

            Judge? Who appointed you? God?

          • GrimmEngineer

            The word “won’t” is akin to a boolean NOT. You seem to have an issue with word definitions.

          • Kat

            Grimm, I’m just scrolling through comments …..and you seem ready for a fight. If you are really speaking from s position of love…you should re-read your comments. You are condescending.

          • RJW

            are you a god?

          • GrimmEngineer

            If only you understood the irony of your question.

          • Ronald W Robey

            The widow did not tithe her pennies. Pennies were not titheable.

          • jman

            pretty sure this whole argument on the totally unrelated topic is one of the reasons people are leaving. Also, tithing is based on the law which by the way Jesus fulfilled. No requirement to tithe and that is a legalistic action that brings us no closer to the Lord. HOWEVER, don’t forget God loves a cheerful giver. So keep arguing…forget about grace….keep running the unchurched further away by arguing about stupid “churchy” stuff.

          • Ronald W Robey

            God never commanded anyone in His Word to tithe money to a Church or a Temple. Yet, so many In Churches around the world today are lied to every time the offering plate is passed. “God requires you to tithe your money” is spoken from the pulpit. “If you don’t tithe, you are a God-robber! You are cursed!” Is often shouted to put the laity in a state of guilt and condemnation. Relax Saints of God… Fear not. God never authorized that pastor to speak those deceitful and unkind words to your ears.

            Let’s examine the Scriptures and see what they say concerning God’s commanded tithe, shall we? But first, let us visit two sons of Aaron at the Tabernacle…

            Leviticus 10:1-2 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

            In the above text, two of Aaron’s sons were struck dead because they offered “strange fire” to God upon the altar of the Lord. What exactly was this “strange fire” that they offered that so displeased the Lord? We are not told. But we are given a special insight as to how precise God wants our offerings to Him be.

            Nadab and Abihu had offered something that God had not commanded. Now, one would think, “Hey, at least they were offering something to God. What wrong can be in that?” But God said they offered something that was not commanded.

            A lesson should be learned by all from the reading of the account of Nadab and Abihu. That lesson is, “Do It By The Book”.

            God has given us His Word as an instruction manual. This “manual” tells us what God expects of us as His dear children. If we are disobedient, God’s chastening hand will be upon us. It surely was upon Nadab and Abihu when they offered strange fire upon the altar.

            The manner in which we are to live is laid out for us in the New Testament section of the Holy Bible. Now, please don’t go off on a tangent, saying I don’t like the Old Testament. I do. I cherish both the Old and the New. I read them both and learn from the both.

            But the fact is, the New contains the pattern by which God wants us to live today. Hebrews 8 tells us that in AD 66 the Old Covenant was ready to pass away and that God was bringing us into a New Covenant. We cannot live in the Old Covenant promises, curses, edicts, laws, statutes, and ordinances. God doesn’t expect us to.

            In AD 51, the Apostles met in Jerusalem with the religious leaders of the day. Their order of meeting was to discuss Gentiles who had been recently converted to faith in Christ. The religious leaders of Jerusalem were insisting that the Gentiles had to keep the Law of Moses or they could not be saved.

            The Apostle Peter spoke before them all, rebuking them for placing a yoke upon the Gentile Brethren that neither the Jews of that day, nor their ancestors could keep themselves. Peter told them they were tempting God in their demands. The Apostle James said the Judsizers were overthrowing the souls of the Gentiles.

            At the close of the meeting, James wrote a letter to the Gentile Believers and sent it to them by the hands of Paul and Barnabas, telling the Gentiles that the Apostles had given no such command that they keep the Law. He also sent Judas and Silas with the same words, but not written… they were to speak to the Gentiles, telling them that they were not commanded to keep the Mosaic Law.

            The Mosaic Law was part of an Old Covenant that was soon to pass away. It was given to the Israelites living in the promised land.

            In many Churches around the world today, there is a doctrine being taught that could be called “strange fire”. That doctrine is the monetary tithe requirement doctrine. Pastors will stand in their pulpits and preach from the Old Covenant the command to tithe that was given to Israel. But, they replace the tithe God commanded, an agricultural tithe, with a tithe consisting of money. It no longer is the tithe that God required of Israel. It has become “strange fire.”

            No longer the agricultural tithe that was commanded by God for the children of Israel in Mount Sinai, (Leviticus 27:30-34) it is now a monetary tithe.
            No longer a tithe that was to be given to Levites, to widows, to orphans, to strangers in Israel, (Numbers 18:21,24,26,28; Deuteronomy 14:22-29; Nehemiah 10:37-38) it is now given to pastors of Churches around the world.

            The “tithes” were good when God had control of them, but modern-day Nadab’s, modern-day Abihu’s have turned them into a “strange fire” which God never commanded. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Many pastors today are tempting God and putting a yoke upon their congregations that God never authorized them to do. Search the Scriptures. When you do, you will find that God’s holy tithe was never carried to the Church, never commanded of the Church, and never controlled by the Church.

            Pastors would do well to set aside this sin of preaching a strange fire and offering it to God in the Sunday prayers. Seek out what the New Covenant says concerning the saved and their giving. They are not to be coerced into giving, they are not to be made to fear a curse from God. Rather, they should be taught to give simply because “they love Jesus.” Teach them as the Apostle Paul taught the saints and brethren at the Church in Corinth… as they purpose in their hearts to give, give cheerfully and willingly God will be honored more by a loving offering than by “strange fire”

            Do it by the Book

            People, If you insist that God requires you to tithe, that you are being obedient to God and His Holy Word, at least have the decency and respect for God and His Holy Word to do it in accordance to what He has written in His Holy Word.

            When you tithe, don’t take it to a Church in a Gentile land. God never commanded such. Instead, do it by the book, as God commanded, and take it to the Promised Land. ( Deut. 12:1,10-11 )

            When you tithe, don’t give it to a Gentile preacher. God never commanded that. Instead, do it by the book, as God commanded, and take it to the Levite, the widow, the orphan and the stranger (which would include yourself) in the Promised Land. ( Deut 14:22-29 )

            When you tithe, don’t tithe money. God never commanded such a tithe. Instead, do it by the book, as God commanded, and tithe agricultural products that are grown in the Promised Land. ( Leviticus 27:30-33)

            If you insist on tithing, don’t tithe that which comes from Gentile hands on Gentile soil. God never commanded it. Instead, do it by the book, as God commanded, and move to the Promised land Israel so you can cultivate the land and have the tithe that God required in the Mosaic Law.

            But remember…

            .Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

            If you are not going to “Do It By The Book”, don’t try to convince me that you are being obedient to God in tithing. It is just the opposite… you are being rebellious to what He decreed concerning how His Holy tithe was to be observed and kept.

            Maybe it’s best you stop offending in that point of the Law and just submit to God’s will concerning your giving today.

            2 Corinthians 9:6 (KJV) 6 But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

            2 Corinthians 9:7 (KJV) 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

            God does not require tithe of your money. Instead, He wants you to give simply out of your love for Him. Not as others dictate, but as you choose in your heart. Give with a willing heart and He will be pleased.

          • JJ

            I believe that tithing can take many forms (e.g. donations to orgs like Red Cross), volunteering (e.g. habitat for humanity, babysitting for a neighbor w/o resources), etc.) I’ve never heard it stated as you’ve done here, but it gives me great comfort. God gave us common sense. No one should tithe (financially) if they don’t have the means to do so. When I was a student (as an adult), I gave in the way that I could (time). It certainly has a monetary value and it is doing the work of the lord (which the church preaches). Thank you for your comment.

          • Danny Watts

            I let my actions and deeds to others for nothing in return speak as my “tithing” like you. I never felt comfortable giving away to someone I don’t really know. Yet alone feeling guilty after, like it was stated in the comments, God doesn’t need your money, he needs you.

          • Ava

            Please tell me how full-time Pastors are supposed to support themselves, even into their 70’s, long after a retirement age??

          • GrimmEngineer

            Hmm, I wonder how we do it. Maybe the same way the that Jesus commanded his Apostles to. They all did other jobs to support themselves and took no monetary gain from preaching the gospel, except receiving a bed for the night or food in their bellies for an evening meal. But never in recompense for the words of the Lord. Those are free. We seem to have no troubles with it in our church.

          • Shannon

            Tithing was actually a religous tax paid for the nation of Israel to function as a theocracy. Today beleivers do not live under such a government and are already burdened in ‘rendering unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s’. The fact is many churches claim we live under the ‘new covenant’ of grace by faith yet conveniently dive into the old covenant to guilt their congregants (sheep) into giving to support buldings, programs and what ever bright new shiny thing that is in vogue by the church at large.

            Rather than tithing believers are under only told to give as they believe (the Apostle Paul). So-called ‘tithing’ is only one reason why I and many others have left the church. They cannot have it both ways: either we are saved by grace through faith alone or we must keep every law perfectly. Unfortunately the church cannot make up their collective mind on that matter.

          • ed

            The scriptures are clear in the teaching of what tithing is for, primarily paid by faith to which he opens the windows of heaven to the those who render what he asks us to do in the Law of Tithe. When we obey any law it is predicated upon the principle of obedience, and as we obey he is bound to bless us, this is the promise. As it is with any commandment. His true church is a church where is leaders, Bishops, Pastors or whatever you may call them, are Servants like his Apostles who served without compensation. I belong to such a church where my Bishop has a family and provides support to them by his skill as a Doctor, I know many who have jobs who serve in extraordinary ways to help the member through their particular circumstances. Because of the true payment of tithe, its resources are dedicated to eh building up of his church for the benefit of man, welfare donations are paid to help those who are in need temporarily till they can get back on their feet. His purposes to feed the physical are provided by those who believe and exercise the faith of his commandments so all may be receivers of the awaiting blessings that are in store in the kingdoms that he has promised to us which are eternal. There is such a church that God has established where he calls Men and Woman to serve him unselfishly, to work in the trenches to bring all men unto Christ. I invite you to learn more of his restored Truths, speak to a missionary from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You will learn firsthand how a church is organized to feed his sheep with the inspired programs that meet the many needs currently apparent throughout the world, it is a testament of the truly lead church that is headed by Christ himself.

          • Chris Falloon

            All of our income is from Him, why would we give a portion of our “extra” when He gave it ALL? If you are faithful to give to His storehouses, He will provide.

          • Marge Brown

            The Mormon churches bishops and all teachers are unpaid and give thousands of hours to the congregation in the name of our Saviour

          • kawaii

            And how should the pastor live if he doesn’t get paid? Or how should the pair be expected to devote himself to the work of the church if he needs to work a job just to pay rent and eat?

          • Maria

            Our church workers including pastors do not receive salary or any kind of compensation.

          • etcharrison

            A laborer is worthy of his hire

          • lordblazer

            good ole king james bible talk.. You must be a fan of Shakespeare.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Midlothian legends actually…

          • Arlington Hayes

            In reply to real Pastor’s pay. I have no problem at all. I’ve worked for the government for years and they took out more than 10% even before I got my check no questions asked. I made great money in my field. However, I never forgot the Lord and his house. Every dollar I’ve earned came from him through the government and other ventures. I’m grateful at the fact he didn’t send me an invoice for oxygen, Peace , Protection, health , sight etc.

          • lee

            The Holy Scripture does not support your words whatsoever.
            First of all, without getting into drawn out detail. The Bible does not mandate tithing nowhere in the New Testament. Has it ever occurred to you, that of the 616 Leviticus laws, tithing is the only law that theee false prophets cling to? On one hand we are saved by grace, and then on the other hand, these crooked uncalled pastors, claim that you must tithe according to the Law, as an act of obedience if we are to be in right standing with Jesus. What foolishness!

          • GrimmEngineer

            Go in peace my confused child.

          • Janet Witt

            Church is just like everyone else in the world always looking for a handout.

          • dosmastr

            i think if you put this much thought into it, you missed the point.

            We have professional teachers in every other profession. I fail to see how the church benefits from being different in that respect.

          • whisperingsage

            NOPE, it’s no longer a tithe under The law, it’s a love offering, and no percentage can be put on it. It is give as You Feel you have been blessed. reread the incident with Abram going to war for Sodom and for his relations of Lot who had been kidnapped, when Abam gave the tithe, it was of the property he had RECOVERED in battle.

          • Degotoga
          • Jumin Rhee

            I’ve heard tithing was an old testament thing and was never in money. Offerings could be in money. If we are to tithe, it should be a chicken or something…

          • JJ truth

            The Bible states the pastor/priest receives an offering—- he is to be paid. His pay is the “offering” which is whatever the church members offer to give. If this is not enough to sustain him he will have to work another job. Usually, God has placed wealthier persons within the church who have a supernatural gift of being “cheerful givers” this offsets those who are poor and can’t afford to give much. Every church member must give “service” to God but we seldom hear church leaders call for this service. They always want cash. Yet, God wants service and obedience more than cash. Ephesians is all about the effective running of the church.

          • Randy

            And you’ll find a church whose pastors are shackled. What happened to supporting the pastor as in Acts so they could give themselves to prayer and the study of the Word.

          • Jcp5349

            Tithing is a tax or rather multiple kinds of taxes paid to ancient Israel. We don’t live in ancient Israel. “Tithe” today is a scam. Nothing wrong with giving cheerfully to a church IF you don’t mind supporting one or more families in exchange for spiritual services you can get on your own from The Source. The way churches are set up today is not the same as in the early church. .Giving went to the poor or to missionaries, not to support a family who lived off the other families.

          • tdr80

            Not sure where your theology comes from about tithing, but you are completely incorrect. It’s always from your firstfruits, which is all you have at the start, which means gross. You always owe God a tenth, even if you have very little coming in.

          • Mark Vilen

            Tithing is actually sin. You are mixing law with grace. We’re under the New Covenant, and we give as grace compels us to give, not with a 10% rule, or any percentage for that matter. Tithing is not for believers, as much as pastors want to misuse Malachi 3.

          • Brian

            Tithes is from the Old Testament, where Paul looked after himself and didn’t try to make the organization bigger

          • Ladygurl


          • scooter

            Your gross is your increase….it is like a pie where the government already got its cut…the gross is your income and thus your increase. However, the question wasn’t really about gross or net….The Bible does tell us to tithe no matter our income…it is the great equalizer….the single Mom working at a minimum job is just as a much a part as the rich man who doesn’t struggle. The question was something more though….do we care about the plight of single Moms, widows, young people, families that are having a hard time. What does God call us to do to be a blessing. Yes, your church should have programs if they are big enough to have that sort of income and ability…..budget..but lets look further. In the OT the poor (whether male or female) were able to glean from the fields….hard work….plus and this is the kicker others were suppose to notice and care about their needs. Do you wait for a church program or do you go help a widow or single Mom mow or snow blow…do you allow the Lord to touch your heart to buy groceries for the struggling young couple who are trying to get by and working as hard as they can????? Further, your church may not have to budget for everything…but every church can sacrifice and help in someway. I’ve seen our people go through their supplies and put them together to help someone….i’ve seen our church give an offering when the world would say you should take care of your need first…we all are called to be led of the Spirit of God.

          • Patricia Anne Norlingpaddis

            We are in the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant where tithing was a law[ a tax ] We do not “Pay ” tithes. We are the children of abraham, and Abraham did not PAY tithes – he GAVE tithes { free -will offering }. We give out of our abundance. And we are to give joyfully; and secretly. Its nobodys business what I give, or who I give to. Its a secret between me and God.

          • Pamela Simmons

            10 % of your income is God’s money. To keep it is stealing. You are to give with a cheerful heart and for that God will bless and take care of his flock. If the church is going by scripture then it’s their place to take care of one of their members not the governments. As far as the marriage goes, if they are living for God and are really listening to him, he wouldn’t give them some one that is not worthy. Prayers for the situations.

          • trudy lavender

            Pamela, How many churches do you know that look after their own, they are so busy looking after others outside the church but the single mother/father and widow is sitting next to them in the church pew and they don’t even know they are battling….

          • justme

            That is a very true indictment of many churches today. We are commanded to care for our brothers and sisters in Christ, to look after the widows and orphans. But too often our churches fall short of that.

            However, if “they don’t even know they are battling” then there is a lack of communication on the part of the needy. Is it because of pride? Fear of resentment? Fear of rejection? Needs have to be made known and resources (food banks within the church, counseling withing the church, mentoring within the church – i.e. all examples of connecting within the church) have to be taken advantage of.

          • Kayla

            There’s that judgement. Please re-read the article. Hurting people first need to be/feel heard without the quick judgement and rhetoric. Understanding creates an openess and desire for more. Think about when you share your feelings with a friend or mate. How does it feel when they immediately tell you your feelings are wrong without first hearing your heart? Forgive me if I’m currently guilty of doing the same to you. It’s often how it happens. The greatest of intentions go awry. .. after all the bible does say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Smile.

          • Rachel Taylor Kersey

            10% is God’s money? Where in the bible did it say a percent? Where did it say that God accepts payment for his services? The point is to help others in the community, not have church leaders driving expensive cars. It’s called to ‘serve’ not to get paid to represent the word of god. 🙁

          • Jackie

            Tithe” means a tenth or 10 percent. 1/10 of a fraction = 10% (Leviticus 27:30-33). Pray about this, just remember that God will use the same measuring stick with us that we apply to Him. Be blessed.

          • Jackie

            Any one who tithes should hold the church accountable in terms of how the money is spent. Financial statements should be presented to members annually.

          • AyeRolle

            The tithe (10%) was a requirement under the Mosaic Law (Old Testament times). We no longer live under the burden of the law, but under grace through faith in Christ. We are instructed to give as we are able, cheerfully. Please see my reply to GrimmEngineer.

          • johnny-5

            100% of your money belongs to God. Everything we have, had, or may yet have, belongs to Him.
            The Old Testament standard was the Tithe (10% of gross); this was to be paid before any other expenses. There were separate offerings also, i.e. the first fruits offering (maybe you had a bumper crop this year, and you give an extra portion out of your gratitude and abundance) – translated today that might be an extra offering from the bonus you received, or the amount of your raise in the first paycheck of the new year.

            The point is that the tithe is part of the law, and when people and churches want to split hairs over it, they reveal themselves to be just like the Pharisees. As with so many other things, its not a money problem, its a heart problem. Wesley had this one right: “earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can”.
            Not everyone can tithe, but everyone (who can read this) can give something. My wife and I give 11.8% of our gross to the local church plus support to other charities. This is after 8 years of marriage – we started at about 0.01%, lol. We started giving a regular amount ($20 a week), then every time we cut an expense or got a raise we would increase it.

          • robert

            The tithe is not as never was part of the Mosaic law, it’s a spiritual principle that predates the law. Abraham tithed to Melchisidek before the law. Jesus mentioned tithing as something that ‘should be done.’ People don’t tithe to their own spiritual detriment. Generally only the mature do it.

          • Ronald W Robey

            Sorry Pamela, but you are wrong.

            Amos 3:3 asks the question, “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?”.
            An interesting question indeed. A question today could be asked why so many who claim to be walking with God disagree with His Word? Are they truly walking with God?
            God said in Leviticus 27:30-33 that His holy tithe is agricultural. Are you in agreement with God? Are you walking with Him?
            God said in Numbers 18:21,24,26,28 that He gave His tithe to the Levitic tribe of the children of Israel. Are you in agreement with God? Are you walking with Him?
            God said in Deuteronomy 14:22-27 that a second tithe was to be taken to a Jewish Feast and eaten by the tither before the LORD God. Are you in agreement with God? Are you walking with Him?
            God said in Deuteronomy 14:28-29 that a third tithe was to be given every three years to feed the widows, the orphans, the Levites and foreigners in Israel. Are you in agreement with God? Are you walking with Him?
            God said in Nehemiah 10:37-38 that the firstfruits were to be taken to the Temple storehouse in Jerusalem, and the tithes were to be taken to the Levites. Are you in agreement with God? Are you walking with Him?
            God said in Psalm 147:19-20 that His statutes and judgments were given to Israel and Israel alone. Are you in agreement with God? Are you walking with Him?
            God’s Word tells us in Acts 15:10 that it is tempting God to tell Gentile Believers that they are to keep the Mosaic Law. Are you in agreement with God? Are you walking with Him?
            In the last chapter that tithing is mentioned in God’s Holy Word, we are told that the commanded tithe is the same agricultural tithe commanded in the Penteteuch more than 1500 years earlier. Are you in agreement with God? Are you walking with Him?
            Are you in agreement and walking with God? or have you rejected His decree and chosen to walk the path of mammon forged by a pastor who has handled the Word of God deceitfully?

          • Rachel Taylor Kersey

            Exactly! I reached out after my divorce(3 kids) & received a payment booklet on day 1.

          • jusme

            If you feel pressured to tithe, then you are not in the Will of God. The Bible plainly says to give to God 10% of our first fruits. If we don’t do that we’re robbing God. I for one don’t want to do that, even if it means I eat less, or whatever other sacrifice I may have to make. The Church is only reminding you to be obedient to God’s Word.

          • AyeRolle

            The Bible “plainly says” that in the OT to those under the Law. We are no longer subject to the burden of the Law, and are under no command to tithe in the New Testament church.

          • S. J. Atherton

            Abraham gave Melchizedek a tithe way before the Law.

          • AyeRolle

            It was voluntarily offered. Tithing wasn’t codified until the Law.

          • S. J. Atherton

            Of course. And from his spoils. And one time.

          • Teresa Murray

            Not all churches are the same. Find one that will meet your needs.

          • DanielaSte

            It absolutely sucks that the church that those moms attended to never helped them to focus on their themselves first before even thinking of getting remarried. However, I am proud to say that the church that I attend to does not only help them emotionally, spiritually, but also economically to all of those single mothers that need it. Plus, giving a tithe is not for anyone else, but to honor God of what it belongs to Him. And that is between the man or woman and God. I encourage that we all pray for the churches because as far as I am concern, the church is the people. If people only knows how to complain, then there won’t be no growth and there will be more churches like this good article just described. God bless you and trust in God because people will always failed, but God never fails!

          • hermstersss

            Tithing is supposed to be voluntary and according to what one determines in their heart and given cheerfully. Perhaps a different church is the anser rather than a blanket condemnation?

          • Dot

            I’m a little tired of people saying find another church. I never attended this church. But all I hear are Christians who support other Christians, just because they say they are a preacher or that they claim to be a Christian. Why don’t you Christians start condemning people like this minister who makes welfare mothers tithe, so he can drive a fancy car? TV evangelicals who spew hate and “send me money, and you’ll be saved” jerks. Preachers who want to legally force their religion onto others. Priests and preachers who sexually abuse children while preaching purity from the pulpit. Priests who tell you that mass murderers can be forgiven, but gays will burn in hell forever. Jerks that spew hate and greed in the name of Christianity have given the entire religion a bad name and created more atheists than anyone. Throw these money changers out of your churches, and we could talk. But it won’t happen will it. These people are representing you. Condemn them or you are them.

          • Iolanthe

            Are there any rabbis on this forum to explain this? They’re the only ones I trust with any authority on the subject of tithing and firstfruits.

          • Jim

            I can’t say what you say above didn’t happen, but it is most certainly NOT what most churches do. Your comment is like saying because one black person killed someone, they all must be killers. Think before you post.

          • Pastor Iniobong Davies

            Dot , I tell people if you are having issues with this giving and tithe issues please don’t give beyond your knowledge about giving until you get enough of the word backing your actions. The high emphasis on tithes and offering by so many ministers is selfish. Don’t misunderstand me, giving to God’s work is good, but if pastors will emphasize helping the poor, soul-winning and holy living as they do tithes the world would be much better.

          • whisperingsage

            My mother was raised Catholic, something i am sure has colored her resistance to reading the Bible or being open to Biblical teaching. And one of her biggest peeves was the money thing. And I can tell you this, I am now a Pastor’s wife , and if any church pressures you for money, don’t go back. Stay away. Tithing was of the Law , and preachers will use Malachi and Hebrews 7 to beat the money out of you, but read to the end, it says Christ died once for all, there is no more sacrifice ( tithing was a form of sacrifice) . Read ALL of Malachi, with the colored glasses that it was talking about The Law. Do a word search in Blue Letter bible or some other free online bible tool, and see that tithing was also food, and tithing was for the poor, and tithing was also at times a party where you bring your own food, and the priests had no land, and were counted among the poor and widows. God was supposed to be their portion.
            So do the study and don’t rely on your money grubbing pastors to tell you right if they aren’t. They are supposed to be to the standard of the bible by the People. And in our church system, (congregational) the Pastor can be voted out.

          • Degotoga

            That’s not a Christian Church, it is a social club pretending to be a Christian Church. Read this:

          • Judy007

            why does the preacher know what you’re earning?

          • Judy007

            how did they “pressure” them and why did you stay where someone Pressured you. You have your own bible. Read it. I though America had a grant system for the down and out? Where is the father of this baby? He should pay his way.

          • Angela F

            amen so true!

          • Judy007

            why would a church want to know what your contribution is. It’s between YOU and G-d? If they’re trying to marry you off, bible says if they’re not of the word, get out of them. Child support is between you and an ex husband – also private. I don’t understand denominations since I can’t find them in the bible.

          • Judy007

            wait wait … HOW did the church KNOW what they were earning?? When the one from the marriage wants to leave, he must do so. let him go. Which church made you take him back? NO-one in the bible said you must be married. OH it DID say you can’t sleep around. You become one with that person you sleep with. But marriage? In fact the bible warns that marriage is hard. I’m totally confused. So sorry – just interested.

          • Dot

            I wasn’t me. I no longer go to church, since I was in junior high. That’s when I saw the hypocrisy. I’ve seen 2 young girls who were molested by men in the church, then told to forgive them and not have them arrested. I’ve seen a preacher who drove a fancy car, insist that the women in his church who were on welfare tithe that money, instead of giving the help to get out of poverty. I saw my sister join a church and then move back in with our parents, so she could give that church more money, even though the preacher and his wife went on fancy vacations. Are all churches like this? No, mostly evangelicals, and many Catholic priests do not take that vow of poverty very seriously. There are those who follow the teachings of Jesus and those who follow the Old Testament. They have never figured out that Jesus came along and changed things, and instead of fire and brimstone he preached love, to all, not just the ones who are just like you. And I saw your post above about only helping people who are near you. So how many homeless are staying with you? Do you have a business with employees? Do you pay them a living wage? There’s a whole lot of greedy “christians” out there who aren’t doing those things, so someone has to help. Or would you rather they just die, so you don’t have to deal with it. Do you shop at the pompous “holier than thou” Hobby Lobby or Walmart, They pay their workers so little they qualify for food stamps, just so they can keep their billions of dollars. THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. That’s why I don’t go to church.

          • Judy007

            WOW, Dot, when someone is molested at a church, OR for that matter when a child is bullied at school, you do NOT go to the manager, pastor, elders, principal, you go to the POLICE. It’s a criminal deed. When your child is touched aggressively (assault) at school you go to the police, and if he/she is hurt in the process you sue the school. When my boys were small I refused to allow them alone with ANY youth leader whatsits, WHATSOEVER. No way on this earth that my young kids would be left alone with strangers. NOT in this world, not today, not ever. If you do go to church it’s to hear the word of G-d from preaching. That’s it. Nothng more nothing less.

          • OliviaPope

            You can tithe with time, treasure or talent. It doesn’t have to always be with money.

          • Judy007

            then why stay – if they’re not of God, why have anything to do with them? Bible said get out of them. I don’t understand the fulfilling of needs when Christ fulfills everything for us. The church surely is not a social club for psychological help. That would make no sense. It’s a place of worship and praise and to hopefully hear something from scripture you have not understood fully before. If there are poor among you give to you without judging them, but only if your heart is joyful in this.

          • Noel

            and making promises that God and Jesus will take care of them if they do.

          • Rachel Taylor Kersey

            I will reply. They preach about serving your man (figuratively & litterally), understanding your man, submitting yourself and decisions to your man and so forth. Times has changed, we are expected to be or have to be equal (or larger) bread winners, we should be equal partners in everything from child care, house work, etc. When do they preach to the men about helping out more, understanding a women has had a hard day, being submissive to her direction?

          • DownriverDem

            Well Ruben, women want to be treated as equals because we are equal to you and all men. This would be a great place to start, don’t you think?

          • Ruben

            Well, Downriver, I don’t understand how that’s a need. Being treated as an equal seems like a preference or a value but not a need. Still awaiting Virginia’s reply that I hope would be informative.

          • Donna Longino

            The needs the Church doesn’t address for women:

            1. The need to be viewed as more than an extension of a man. Women are distinct individuals separate from their spouses .

            2. The need to have a voice in leadership. Some women are better leaders than men…the Church fails to recognize this, relegating women to subordinate roles in society and in the Church body.

            3. The need to have the Church stop perpetuating misogyny.

            4. The need to have the Church place as much responsibility on men when it comes to birth control as it does on women. The Church is quick to regulate female sexuality….but rather silent on a man’s responsibility.

            5. The need to have the Church ACT as if women were spiritual equals capable of teaching men as well as women and children.

          • Ruben

            Those are needs? They sound more like preferences or desires.

          • Donna Longino

            May God bless you..and the church.. with more discernment. Needs go far beyond the physical, but I suspect you know that. I’ve outlined a few spiritual/emotional needs in answer to your question. Your inability to acknowledge them as such demonstrates why the church will continue to lose people, verifying the point of this article. The “church ” is often nothing more than a collection of people meeting in a building who lack empathy and fail to demonstrate love. Matthew 22:36-40.

          • greatguy999

            Nice response. Virginia will not respond, because she is just a whiner; she has no real grievances whatsoever; only excuses.
            She wants the church to “serve” her, when she is supposed to be the one looking for ways to serve others through the local church. She is an example of modern day “Christians” who have no clue what it means to follow the Lord.

          • Ruben

            Indeed. I have waited patiently for two years and no response. She is a consumer who – instead of looking to bring something to the local church – looks to get something. This group always misses the paradox that, in order to receive, one must give; in order to find her life, she must lose it; in order to be served, one must serve others first.

          • Jassius
        • GaryS

          With Ruben, Steve and the others, I ask that you please do articulate further on this. It’s info we probably need to hear.

          • Dot

            We’ve been answering the questions above. Another example, a church who forced a young woman not to turn in her father for molesting her, and “forgiving him”, and now he is molesting his granddaughter. Her great aunt turned him in, because she is a teacher and is required to report abuse, but she is shunned now by that part of her family.

          • GrimmEngineer

            Forgiveness is separate from Justice. You can forgive a man for what he has done, but still see him to his justice. If the crime is great and the Law demands recompense, you can still forgive. You can forgive your child for what they have done, while still seeing the necessity of punishment. So are we in the eyes of the Lord.

          • Dot

            But this church didn’t practice justice. They did nothing to protect the victims, except make the creep promise not to do it again. They continue to do this and put pressure on the female victims to keep their mouths shut, because this is the man of the house, and they should follow him. This is one of the reason that sane people have left the church. Get it?

          • GrimmEngineer

            I understand why people left THAT church. Yes. One thing that is important to understand. The Gospel of the Lord is perfect. However, it has been recorded and written by imperfect people. And it is administered today by people who are also imperfect. True perfection of the church of Jesus Christ will not occur until the second coming. We can only try our best to follow with our imperfections.

          • RJW

            Any sin is Great before a HOLY God. Al sin is against Him and he will recompense. God the Son took this punishment for us. Not a jesus he created but God the Son took our penalty. Anyone who rejects this for another gospel of good works. How much more will Gods wrath be on him since he has rejected God only Son, Jesus lived the perfect life we could not. And the died on the cross for us. Isaiah 53. When we trust God be placing our complete faith in Christ alone God the Spirit comes live in our hearts Emmanuel God with us to help us live our lives as we surrender to Him We are forgiven. We don’t need to go to a temple. God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirit are all ONE.

          • A Concerned Individual

            It is terribly disheartening to see some of the arguments that have been taking place throughout the “comments” section of this article. It’s like some people are missing the main point and going right into the judgmental and critical attitudes that this article says are pushing people away. Can we not just all agree that perfect Bible trivia is not the main goal of Christianity? We are commanded to LOVE one another. That does not mean you have to agree with the sins of others. Have people forgotten the phrase “hate the sin, love the sinner?” I hoped that reading these comments would bring me hope, as someone who has been a Christian my whole life, but is feeling overwhelmed by the way “Christians” as a whole are treating the people of the world. Instead, I, once again, am ashamed at some of the attitudes being displayed by certain individuals. Do we not realize that the petty attitudes of certain individuals of the Church are attributed to “Christianity” as a whole by those who see them? Arrogance, preference, and hypocrisy are what the world is seeing in Christianity, because that is what we are showing them. I wouldn’t want to join a group like that either, if I did not know any better. We have to stop.

          • diggity

            The problem is that “hate the sin, love the sinner” is not found anywhere in the Bible. Plus, many people equate not supporting sin with condemning the sinner.

            We need to realize that we are all sinners, and that all sin is equally abhorrent to God. It is only man who attempts to put levels upon sin, i.e. my sin of lying is not as bad as his sin of stealing which is not as bad as her sin of ….

            ALL sin separates us from God. We are all sinners. We are all loved by God and needing a savior. We want the sinners to be in the church, those who realize they need a savior. But we need to tell them the truth (in love) about what is separating them from God and them help them.

        • cj

          Cop out

        • Tyler

          Your problem was relying on the Church to help you instead of going to God directly for the help. The Church is dead and the only. Real truth is inthe personal relationship you have with God. The Church is Human and to err is human, so why look to Man for your answers.

        • Rana

          Virginia, I’m very sorry that you did not find God’s redeeming love and encouragement at the church you attended. I’m sorry you weren’t encouraged in the corporate worship of Almighty God. Please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. All churches are not like that. I hope you have asked Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and are daily striving to be pleasing to Him. There is no shame or guilt in doing that.

        • froggzzz

          Al so, maybe a different church, sounds like the one or ones you attended may not be the right fit.

        • Josh

          Of course, meeting personal needs is all church is good for. (Sarcasm)

        • Pastor CSL

          I am lifting you in prayer today. I’m a female pastor and am blessed to have pastored a church for 13 years which was a hospital for the sinners and not a country club for the saints. I’m now assisting with a larger (125 member) church which has the same ideas about ministering. Please don’t give up on all churches. God does have groups where folks take care of one another and above all, love the Lord.

          • Anthony Harkin

            You have no Biblical authority to be a pastor; only men can do the role.

        • Esther Cheever

          I am sorry that the church was not meeting your needs. But if you block the church out, your blocking God out too, because he wants us to go to church. Maybe what you need is to find a different church that is living more like Christ. But just keep in mind that no one is perfect. Not even you. Remember, we dont go to church to compare ourselves to others, we go to church to be a blessing to others and gain a blessing from the sermon. I will keep you in my prayers and also the people who drove you away from the church because of their actions.
          May God bless you, Virginia. I am a 15 year old that was brought up in the church, so i know it can be hard when you clash with others, but just keep in mind what Jesus had to deal with when he was on earth. Here is how he dealt with it, ” Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” This should be our prayer.

          • Becka Washington

            Hi ,I just noticed you made this comment 4 years ago when you were 15 . I just thought I would ask if you still feel the same way as you did when you made this comment? I’m almost 42 yrs old. Not that age has anything to do with it. My point being, have you since started to feel that something just dont seem right? I am only curious ?
            Please dont be offended or anything . I dont mean it that way and please keep in mind idk you, exactly how you believe or even which type church you have grown up in . It is also not my place to assume anything either. 4 years ago , I believed many things that I have since found out just wasnt true .
            The things I was taught in church were watered down or had a sort of twisted truth.
            Satan has succeeded in turning good into evil and evil into good or mixing the 2. So many within the church have been deceived.
            Not bad people but bad teachings.

        • Richard B Evans

          I could never understand how anyone with a slave driven past, to females, to alternate lifestyles, aka, homosexuals, to anyone who can see through the hokey, vigin birth to resurrection, immoral, murderous, genocidal, misogynistic, infanticide, teachings, could follow the bible. Ancient barbaric ideologies need to be left to the past. We are better people than that.

          • Scott

            Whats a vigin birth? So you are blaming slavery on Christians? Nice try. If you look it up the majority of people who were active in the slave trade IN Africa were not Christians. Those who were, many came to see the light, I site the writer of Amazing Grace John Newton, he was a slave trader, turned Christian, put all of that behind you and through Christ is now in heaven. How is the Bible ancient or barbaric? I’m not sure you’ve even read it mate. Jesus did not come down here to condemn us, but to SAVE us. (John 3:17) To SAVE YOU and ME from ourselves, from our sin. Regardless of what we have done, we can find forgiveness through Christ. However, if you choose the other path, which is an outright hatred of God and not believing who he is, then you will end up in Hell. You have to make the choice. No one can force you. It seems like you may have already made your choice. I would encourage you to find a good Pastor to talk to about this. They would be able to answer your questions better than I in a comment box.

          • B

            You aren’t talking about the Bible when you say “immoral, murderous, genocidal, misogynistic, infanticide [sic]”–because that isn’t what it teaches. You are talking about the Democrat Party’s platform. The only people in America trying to resurrect “ancient barbaric ideologies” are leftists/atheists. It’s interesting that you proclaim your own supposed goodness as you distance yourself from the Bible.

          • Anthony Harkin

            That’s stupid reasoning. There are people walking the earth today thanks to adults teaching me the Ten Commandments when I was a child.

        • Carolyn’s Tips

          Virginia, come to an Episcopal Church, you’ll be glad you did.
          Everyone is accepted, I mean everyone.

        • Teresa Murray

          I am sorry you feel you can never return to church because your needs weren’t being met. I don’t believe the church as a whole should keep you from church, maybe you need to find a church that will meet your needs. Not all churches are the same. Best wishes to you.

        • singularity

          Most of the comments devolved into semantic arguments about tithing and the validity of various denominational methods. I agree with you, Virgina. I won’t be returning to the church either and I think these comments speak for themselves about why that is, wouldn’t you agree?

          • Virginia Moher

            Yes, I agree.

        • KDC

          Seems like a person gets their head biten off if they dare say that the church wasn’t meeting their needs, but it should go both ways, right? I feel like you do anyway. I volunteered for Sunday school but kinda felt like I was more or less a plug in or another face with a church shirt. Hadn’t been there after a while and didn’t hear from anyone as to my absence (mostly work). Just sad I guess… I thought I was somebody there.

        • Terry

          I am sorry for the church and how they have made you feel Virginia. As I see the discussion turn to the rules of tithing and the rest of it, it is just sad. The discussion started because of your hurt. Again, I apologize. I would like to know what needs you are referring to so I can learn how to meet those needs in my church. I am a married man and at times I get stuck in that mindset and don’t understand things from another perspective of life.

          • Virginia Moher

            Here’s an example: my husband had many affairs and when I went to the pastor, all he said was that God had forgiven him. Those affairs destroyed my marriage and broke my heart and that’s what I got. I needed acknowledgement of my pain. That flippant 20 second answer didn’t do a thing for me.

          • Terry

            Oh my gosh! I wish I could erase the words. So sorry Virginia. As a pastor I can tell you that I have said many things I have regretted. Maybe he regrets his words. All I can say is that not all churches or pastors believe like that. I would tell you (I will take flack for this) to kick his butt out (your husband). If you could get past all the emotional wreckage and find forgiveness for him enough to reconcile, great, if not, I totally understand. For my critics I would ask if we should trust our children to a apologetic pedophile? I don’t think so. Things like this need to be handled with extreme empathy and understanding for the person who has been devastated by the actions of another. Hang in there Virginia.

        • Stephen B

          “I have needs” Interesting point of view. Jesus said to seek first His kingdom and your needs will be met. What father when their son asks for bread would give them a stone? My point here is perhaps your needs aren’t there for the church to fulfill. Too many come to church to get something rather than to give something. We are called as believers to present our bodies a living sacrifice holy and pleasing to God. The challenges we face when gathering with other imperfect humans is part of that sacrifice as we learn to love, forgive and grow as a family.Those leaving the church because the “church” failed them often had unreasonable expectations to begin with. If you are a believer then you are the church.

        • Byfaith286

          Virginia, why does everyone always think that it Is just the churches place to give when they do nothing to give back. People always want to take, take, and take but they should be willing to put back also. Most people that leave a church is the problem, then they go to another church for a while and then leave there, why because they expect everything to be given to them and don’t want to do their part. This is just like a marriage, it is equal, you do your part, the church does their part and everyone is happy.
          You have needs and the church was not meeting those needs, the church has needs, were you meeting the churches needs, think about it and look in the mirror and see where most of the problems come from.

        • Oneil Dippozit Richards

          Leaving the church isn’t a bad thing Virginia., Actually believer are commanded to come out from among them (that is come out from these organization of men posing as the “Bride of Christ” which is the true church)The question i would like to ask you though is this “are you any better off now that you’re out of the church or are you mad as hell at the church and everything else? Churches are not God you know they are just institution set up by men, and people from all over pick and chose the ones they feel more comfortable with. People expect the Church to make them feel better about themselves but the truth is these institution don’t have the truth only God does and since these institution don’t belong to God they can’t have His truth to give to you or any other that seeks or claim to be seeking to find the truth there. IN other words you can’t give what you don’t have.
          If you are giving the faith to do so then you can check out this site Virginia

        • RN Nutrition

          Aww… so in your eyes, the Church is there to meet your needs and if it doesn’t, you are through. How Biblical. The body of Christ, His Church, is designed so that we can come together and worship our King with other believers to hold us accountable. We are to go out into our communities and share His good news… His Gospel. It seems that you are all about your needs and nothing else… “I have needs and those needs were not being met by the Church.” I’m sure that the Church’s needs were not being met by you…. sorry so blunt.

        • lana broussard

          Well the church is made of humans and humans are imperfect and messed up. I’m Sorry they hurt you to the point you feel there is no returning. May I please encourage you to forget about church and maybe just begin to ask Jesus who HE is. Bc I promise you…you will be shocked.

        • michele

          Please study the subject of “tithing”.. This is the churches “cash cow”.. What we see the modern church doing IS NOT scriptural.. Let me ask you this… There are only TWO occupations that gave the “tithe”. What were they? Did gentiles give a “tithe”?.. Was the “tithe” money? How often was the tithe given? Who collected the”tithe” ?. Hosea 4:6..My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee”…. Church goers are not studying His word for themselves. They rely on the lying pastor to interpret it and won’t do what the Bereans did and for this they too shall be judged.

          • Ronnie Tanner

            Michele, do you consider that what you see with your eyes as the “modern church” as the Body of Christ?

          • michele

            When I say “modern” church I mean the church age we are in now and it’s pastors/preachers/ self-titled bishops. These people are suppose to be of the Body of Yeshua The Christ, but they act far from it. His true body of believers are those who follow His way, read His word, search for truth and act according to His word.

          • Ronnie Tanner

            Ok, thank you for explaining. Are you open to considering that what you are describing is simply not the Body of Yeshua, The Christ? If that is the case, and it is, why would these men do anything but be as they are, having nothing to do with The Lord?

            Matthew 7:18-20 MKJV
            (18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
            (19) Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
            (20) Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.

            Do you believe the Lord, The Good Shepherd would give His Own people such as those you describe?

            Jeremiah 3:14-15 MKJV
            (14) Turn, O backsliding sons, says Jehovah; for I am married to you; and I will take you one from a city, and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
            (15) And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

            Do you see the key here? Men who are not right with the Lord are naturally drawn to false teachers, not knowing those that are blind from those that are true.

            The Body of Christ is just that – His Body, and it is alive and well today, just as He is and has always been.

          • michele

            I know that’s where you were going…hence, my stating His true body of believers are those who follow His way, read His word, search for truth and act according to His word. I am clear that these religious leaders are not of Him.

          • Ronnie Tanner

            Michele, those pastors/preachers/self-titled bishops aren’t supposed to be the Body of Yeshua. In fact they have been appointed by God to administer strong delusion to those that do not have a love of the truth.

            2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV
            (9) The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
            (10) and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
            (11) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
            (12) in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

            On the other hand, God does give true shepherds to those that acknowledge their guilt, rebellion, and disobedience.

            Jeremiah 3:13-15 ESV

            (13) Only acknowledge your guilt, that you rebelled against the LORD your God and scattered your favors among foreigners under every green tree, and that you have not obeyed my voice, declares the LORD.
            (14) Return, O faithless children, declares the LORD; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
            (15) “‘And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

          • michele

            Thanks, I agree with that, however I didn’t always know and sat under these false teaching until The Most High showed me different and deep inside I knew something was wrong with what these “churches” were saying and doing. Now, I know people who do love The Most High, yet they have not walked into the true knowledge of His word. I only hope The Most High wakes them up, but as for the others, they choose to believe these lying wonders and when anyone tries to point out error or try to enlighten them they say that famous catch phrase “touch not God’s appointed”..I honestly am tired of trying to explain truth to them, from the false teachings of tithing to which day is the Sabbath, to the real name of the Messiah (Yeshua), so I basically stay silent and wait until The Most High directs me

          • Ronnie Tanner

            Michele, can you clear something up for me?

            You say:

            “Now, I know people who do love The Most High, yet they have not walked into the true knowledge of His word.”

            How can one love The Most High yet not walk in the true knowledge of His word?

            Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
            (John 14:23 MKJV)

            The people you are referring to don’t love the Lord. They love another Jesus, a carnal image they have made of Him in their own mind.

        • Ronnie Tanner

          Virginia, what is your course of action now? Have you come to see that which you call the “Church” is not the Body of Christ after all? If so, that is a gift from God. However, where will you go now?

        • etcharrison

          Choice is what every human has.

          Many are called but few are chosen.

        • TEXANONLY

          Then if it is too late for the Church to get you back , then you need to pray more because you are lost. JR

        • 27273100

          I couldn’t agree more, Virginia. After the way I’ve been treated by so-called “Christians”, I came to the conclusion that there is no God for people like me.

          • bill66

            Not only no god for people like you,….. no schools …..or jobs ….or mates, …or friends,….. or respect…. savings… future…. nothing. Nothing for people like you….

          • 27273100

            Keep speaking about yourself. The more you put out, the dumber you look. I don’t *EVER* want to be a christian because I sure as hell don’t want to turn out like YOU.

          • bill66

            If you were religious, you wouldn’t turn out like me…. as I’m not religious.

          • 27273100

            I wouldn’t go anywhere *NEAR your “religion” if your god threatened to kill me. I’m looking at what it’s clearly doing to you. Some “god” you serve.

          • bill66

            You wouldn’t get near my religion… as I have no religion. I have no ‘god’. I serve this country and it’s constitution. I know… it’s hard for someone like you, to be able to grasp someone disagreeing with you… when you so desperately need to think it’s because of religion, but guess what, kiddo, most of the country respects of rights to believe as they wish, even when those beliefs differ from ours. But then…. you’re a bigot.

          • 27273100

            Still lying, I see….too bad it’s not working.

          • 27273100

            That’s the difference: I’m not religious by any stretch because I don’t want to turn out like YOU.

          • bill66

            That makes no sense.

          • 27273100

            It makes perfect sense. I’ll say it slowly so you can comprehend: I’m not religious by any stretch because….wait for it…wait for it…I don’t want to turn out like YOU? Are you getting it now, or do I need to draw a picture for you??

          • bill66

            I already wrote that I’m not religious. How would you turn out like me? You statement makes no sense. You’re an idiot, idiot.

          • 27273100

            The only idiot on this board is YOU…idiot.

          • bill66

            Again, you are so …………………………………… stupid. I mean… just so stupid that it almost defies definition. Stupid is simply the nicest way to tell you what you are.

          • 27273100

            How humble of you to *finally* tell the truth about yourself. Especially how absolutely stupid YOU are.

          • bill66

            is that a “I’m rubber, you’re glue” retort? How cute.

          • 27273100

            Yeah, when you stay stuck stalking me long after I had moved on. You said you were through posting to me, so are you going to keep your promise or not?

          • bill66

            1. I didn’t promise. 2. I’ve decided to just sit here and clown you. I’m showing everyone what a clown you are. I’m going to tell you to find the lie, post it and tell us why it’s a lie, until you run off crying. Clown.

          • 27273100

            Of course you didn’t promise because you can’t keep your word. Was it not YOU who said you can’t continue to post to me? Unless you lied about that, too?

          • bill66

            I’ve decided to wait till you post a lie and tell us why it’s a lie. Do it.

          • 27273100

            Oh, you mean *THIS* one, clown? :


            an hour ago

            You’re becoming incoherent. Your writings are becoming scrambled. You’re far to bizarre to continue this. Good bye.

            So, um…*LIE* your way out of this one!! The one who is actually scrambled, bizarre and incoherent is YOU. All you’ve done is SHOW me how much of a liar you *REALLY* are. Still wondering why your lies are not working?? The only one you’re “clowning” is YOURSELF, not me.

          • bill66

            You are becoming incoherent. Your writings are becoming scrambled. You are far too bizarre, but long before this, you wrote I was lying and failed to tell anyone what the lie was or how they were lies. You are a flake and you are a clown. I will continue this until you have to run off to your minimum wage job…. if you even work…

          • 27273100

            What’s the deal? Don’t like taking what you dish out? Once again, caught in another lie. And I will keep calling you a liar, clown, because you keep proving me correct.

          • bill66

            I proved you wrong….. yet again. You just can’t seem to find any lies… and say how they’re lies. Do it.

          • 27273100

            How exactly? The only thing you did was prove me right that you’re a delusional liar — and you’re *STILL* doing it.

          • bill66

            I just told you… but I see you’re dense, so I’ll tell you again. I told you to find the lies, post them and tell us how they’re lies. You didn’t/can’t. You’re unable. You haven’t any reasoning skills or education. If you ask me how again, I’ll copy this and post it as my reply. You said there were lies, but you can’t find them. You lied.

          • 27273100

            You are the dense one, and a dumb one at that. You asked me to post the lie you told and you got what you asked for. Don’t get mad at me because it wasn’t what you wanted to read. What a fun fact to know that you are have no reasoning skills whatsoever. Liars like you never do.

          • 27273100

            Keep deluding yourself.

          • bill66

            Now… here is a promise. I will not write you anymore. You are a bigoted, lying, flaky clown. I know you will not amount to anything and the only home you live in, will be your parents home. You will always be someone’s minimum wage employee. I’ll drive by and toss a buck to you when you’re on the curb….. maybe.

          • 27273100

            LMAO — The only bigoted, lying flaky clown I see in this thread is YOU. You apparently haven’t amounted to anything and LIVES in your parents’ basement or you wouldn’t need to make up lies, now would you? This time, keep your word and stop writing to me.

            But then again…with your track record for lying, I’m not counting on that.

          • 27273100

            I’m just *LAUGHING* at you. Such a nice disclosure about yourself. What’s even funnier is that you’re incoherent and scrambled enough to keep posting to me. So…tell me…how is that minimum-wage job you go to everyday working for you?

          • bill66

            I’m not actually an employee. I am an employer. You are an employee. You will never be an employer, unless you hire a hooker.

          • 27273100

            In your fantasies, you are an employer. Nice try, but you can’t even tell that lie right. YOU will never be an employer, unless you ARE a hooker.

          • 27273100

            What’s wrong? Don’t like what you asked for? Then don’t ask for it, stalker clown.

        • Kassy

          Agree! note to Church/Religions: how about NOT continuing to ignore the DIVINITY of women by constantly referring to GOD as ‘HE’, a male deity when in fact the nature of GOD HAS NO GENDER…right? Omniscient, Omnipresent…ALL THINGS, Universal…right? The role of Women in modern religions effects the entire female population and not in a good way. When the ‘old religions’ which recognized the DIVINE qualities of women, not as a mere honorable mention, but in their practices is brought into any forum, it is something that was defeated, conquered, abolished as ‘her’esy, witchcraft, etc. Modern religions continue the gender war initiated by Papal Law without even realizing it. It goes beyond single motherhood, child welfare and support.

        • Natasha

          Guilt = shame of not living by the rules … So easy to walk away … … People make me laugh, WHO SAID THE CHURCH OR OUR SWEET LIRD JESUS IWES YOU ANYTHING ?????? How selfish if a statement

        • Jim

          The church is NOT there to meet your needs, and it never was or will be! The church is there to proclaim Christ and His salvation!!! What should be your “needs” are reaching out in a serious way (not “WWJD bracelets) with the Word and Christ’s saving grace.

        • Pastor Iniobong Davies

          Virginia, i thank you for your sincerity. I apologize for the numerous problems you may have encountered in your trying to know God more through people who were either to supposed to help you know him more. Never you allow any one to cajole you into giving what you never planned to give in the church. what I mean is that always prepare what you have in mind to appreciate God right from your home and not even on Sunday morning or church service day. with that when youre done giving what you had proposed in your heart right from home, please no matter what anyone says please be bold to acknowledge that God has received your gift of love and never feel guilty if you are not giving more. Finally never you look at Man but God through his word. Man will fail you but Jesus will never.

        • John P

          Since when is the church have to take care of your needs. The church serves and you are part of that mechanism. When you withdraw into self you have taken yourself out of it. This makes for a unhappy person

          • Virginia Moher

            As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so too, happiness is in the heart of the individual. I am happy now but, hey, thanks for worrying I may not be. When you say, the Church serves, I have to ask, Serves who? Serves the poor, for instance? Do the poor have needs? If you just want to sit around and chant to God, that’s OK for you but I would rather take care of people’s needs. That’s the opposite of withdrawing into self, by the way.

          • Roger

            Virginia – I really appreciate your thoughts and concerns. I am very sorry for your frustrations. I can tell you that your words are causing me to evaluate myself and my viewpoints. I have been diving into some of the things you have expressed before I read your comments, but now I know this study is very worthy of my time. Church folks do a great job of telling people about God’s love, but we kind of glaze over problems that make us uncomfortable and, quite frankly, the real issues. We’re like, “Jesus will help you – thanks for coming.” Then we move along quickly. How is Jesus going to help? I have been asking folks at my church, “How would you describe how Jesus helps us?” I can’t tell you how many blank looks I’m getting from people who should know the answer to this question. I’m certainly not speaking about anyone on this thread – it’s just what I’ve experienced, and I’m sad to admit, but I’ve been a part of this attitude. NO MORE! I am going to change that and help/serve as many folks as I can. Our church’s VBS is about this very topic this year and I’m excited about it. By the way, there is no way that I could do what I do without my wife’s help. I depend on her and the Lord in all aspects of my life.

          • Virginia Moher

            Roger, thank you. I think you will find that getting out of the church building and doing work for others will uplift you and your fellow helpers in unimaginable ways.

          • Caring Canine Admin 2

            Hi Roger, ur post sounds the kindest and least judgmental so I try to reach out to u and ur wife in my desperation. I am all alone, with serious health issue, with an abused background since I had memory. I feel that whatever I pray for, i get the worst possible results. (E.g. Pray for a friend, got a drug dealer approaching me saying to help me and I believed him and even thank God for him, and got very hurt. E.g. Prayed for a supervisor who is good in God’s eyes and didnt cheat. Got a supervisor who cheated to the point you wont believe and I suffered the severe consequence… still suffering from the consequence now and…. Prayed for the abuse to stop at home, never did… not even now after decades. Prayed for healing of health issues….never healed after decades. Then the church would said in disgust to me that u cant say God didnt answer u just becsuse u didnt get the perfect supervisor u prayed for? Ha? Of course if i have a lot of goood things going for me, and I have a non-perfect supervisor, of course ok. But I am struggling with so many things and not one thing is going well for me, still I got a supervisor who cheated like crazy with no respect for God or morality–the worst u could imagine, and I suffer the consequence in desperation, how could this be trivialized to asking for a perfect supervisor and not getting it? I now understand why i am always fearful–becuz I suffer and suffer but every Christians around me who live a priviledged life (family, job, health) just think it is ok that I continue to suffer without lifting a single finger to help. Just like they say that when they see the homeless dancing inside the church (basement) at a party, that is Heaven. How can Heaven be a place where u live as a homeless person all alone on the street, not contibuting to the world or Kingdom of God with your talents if any, and just getting a meal and doing a little dance the church once a week during the Winter excluding holidays. Anyone who bothers to talk to these homeless ppl know that they r not joyful.

            Anyway, I am going too far. I hope that u and ur wife could pray to God to show me a reason why I should continue to live, and what I should do for I am soooo last. Thank you.

        • Willwinchristy

          If it’s too late for the church to get you back, then you probably never belonged! The church is not just some organization, it is the bride of Christ! There will be struggles and tribulation, but we are to fix our eyes an Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith!the the bride of Christ is made up of many different parts! And all the parts are not perfect but being conformed till that great and glorious day of His return, each part of the body belongs to one another.if you are truly part of the body of Christ, you don’t want to leave! We are one body , the body of Christ! Change to church in a different location, where you feel connected to the body, but don’t stop church!

          • Paul

            A clearly defensive post like yours will get us nowhere. It’s a classic knee-jerk response that abrogates church failings and the necessity to actually LISTEN to criticism. I am a Catholic church organist, and from my perspective, the Church is not listening to people outside its walls. It sets up Synods but the people involved are mostly churchgoers. In politics, for a party to gain power it has to attract people who would normally vote for other parties. It does this through reform of its policies which promise radical change. The Church is absolutely incapable of doing that, and will continue to decline as a result.

        • Ted Martin

          “Nothing in return” ? I am an older guy, single, but I was not always old, I have always felt that church pretty much ignored me, oh they might be polite, but still, it was as if, they “did not know what to do with me” . I do not want to be made a spectacle of 😉 but not discarded either.

        • Densel Posadas

          Hi, I’m from the Philippines and i am a youth leader’ like you before i feel that my needs doesn’t Met by the church, anyway, first thing i did before is to pray to God that if there is someone that will meet my needs that’s Him and not the church, the building or the people inside’ well’ yes, you can say that The Lord are using such persons to reach us’ and why not? right? now, my sister, think first, where is the problem in your church or in your relationship to God, because if the church is the problem then, why the other people like you who have problems and maybe more big than your are satisfied? ask God then, i know He will answer you, immediately’ i hope i help you’ i will pray for you… even this post of yours are 2 yrs. ago….

        • Allan Abais

          Sometimes we are thinking of what the Church can do to us instead of what I can do to the Church and to glorify God.

        • Cynthia Polihrom

          I am truly sorry you were hurt but recognize that anyone who is a true follower of Christ responds in love. When you are hurt and offended it is because you do not understand how much you are loved by God. God is love and if you understand that at the deepest level you understand what was done for you on the cross. When you are so hidden in Christ, your identity is so strong that all offenses and hurts become nothing. Jesus never set boundaries or held people at arms length because he set the example of, “love takes no account of the wrong done to it.” I would say yours is not a church issue but perhaps a lack of understanding of who God is. We are created in God’s image, God is love and we display his glory when we truly love others.

        • Judy007

          Virginia I wanted nothing from the church. I only wanted them to preach exactly the word to me. But they kept steering away from it and they never stopped with the revival talk and for that they needed money, a LOT of money – I AM a giver but I saw their own mansions go up and not that it’s my business but something became so OFF!

        • Kawana Rose Hanick

          Proverbs 11:24English Standard Version (ESV)

          24 One gives freely, yet grows all the richer;
          another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want.

          Luke 6:38English Standard Version (ESV)

          38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

          Malachi 3:8-10 ESV / 916 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

          Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

          Remember, by paying tithes you are obeying Gods command. Yes, tithing is a command. He said if you did not pay it was a curse. No matter what the church does with the money, it’s on them. Once you pay it, you have fulfilled your duty to God. He said he would give the increase. Not the church. You don’t pay tithes to have the church support you. He said to try him. I have done this for years. And I have never wanted. Give with a cheerful heart and with understanding. Or don’t. Anyone can tell you anything, but only prayer and a clear conscience is going to answer. He said to try him. So do it. Give and see if you get back. Remember, it may not be cash you get back but, you will likely never be without food, shelter or necessities. He won’t always do it the way you’d like. He’s not a Genie.

      • sheree tjung

        Thankyou Clarke. I love your comments. I have been in the Australian church now 30 years and havinge some thoughts on this. First – God told me- THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MAN AND WOMAN IS SMALL. BUT WHEN IT IS TAUGHT WRONG IT BRINGS OPPRRSSION.

        Now my thoughts – The praise men seek to get in church they do so by putting down the woman and lifting the men. Also if man is going to lead doesn’t this mean serve???? And when things go wrong the women get the blame. Shouldn’t the leader be responsible when things go wrong????? If he is the provider why does he push the woman into work and try to stop her having children. And sexuality — Women are sexual too but it makes the men uncomfortable so they make diagrams to show why they can’t get sex from their wives. Are they chemically neutered?

        Leadership and headship equals the responsibility and the extra work.

        Having said this. I am praying to know what I am what God says that I am so we can save women from hell. Church should have the answers. I have a husband that I am addicted to. I also have 4 sons one of which will be a pastor soon. Men are fantastic friends and helpers. I thank God for them.

      • BT

        Clarke, I agree that things seem to be a little unfair when it comes to rhetoric about dress. I believe that when men aren’t modest in their appearance (open shirts, gaudy attire, etc.), it should be addressed. Modesty isn’t the issue. There’s actually nothing wrong with it when applied to everyone. The thing is, clothing for women is made more provocatively than clothing for men. Thus, women’s lack of modesty is seen and addressed often. It often isn’t addressed in love, however, which is an issue.
        Also, even if a woman is fully clothed and wearing nothing that is mini or tight, she should feel confident in her body, which is for her husband. (His body is for her as well, as the Bible says;)
        In addition, her emphasis shouldn’t be on her body or sexuality, anyway. It should be on Christ.

      • BT

        In addition, as a Christian, if something you’re doing or wearing is creating an issue and/or distraction from Christ, etc…it is your duty to correct yourself…Not get offended and upset.

        “…no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way” Romans 14:13 (KJV)

      • BT

        Sorry, I replied to the wrong person lol.

      • Brouillard

        Not hard to find in my neck of the woods…we have plenty of Episcopal churches. How about if we all try to focus more on the soul than on the outer packaging (gender, color, etc.) Merry Christmas to all!

      • Carole

        I find it disheartening to look at a church website and see only men listed on the leadership team…and sometimes a woman is listed as “church secretary”…it breaks my heart. Knowing what actually goes on behind the scenes (I’m a minister’s daughter and was married to a church deacon before he ran off with a woman he was having an affair with)…the church “secretary” is often the one person holding it all together…but is paid the least and is not invited to the high level meetings and decision-making.

        • GrimmEngineer

          “Paid” is the evil root of this entire problem…

          • big dog 2

            Are you claiming that no one in the organizational structure of the LDS church is paid?

        • Essene

          My, how predictably sexist of you.

      • Justin DeGonia

        I don’t know where you live, but wow you need to find another church. Where I’m from, our little church is a family and LOVE is what we are about. You’ll never hear about the OLD teachings of the woman staying home etc stuff other than maybe in the use of explaining just the differences of then and now. We’re are pretty old school when it comes to church. We have contemporary praise and worship, but that’s about it. You’ll not find all the light and stage shows, instead you find people who love God, and love his people. No humans are prefect and the same for true christians. I pray that one day you find that church of comfort and love as we have! May God truly bless you!!

      • mag00

        I appreciate your devotion to gender equality. The issue I keep having is that the scripture *explicitly* calls for the enslavement and inferiority of women. The texts are often not taken out of context, but many Christians will say this because it helps calm the cognitive dissonance they experience because they believe the Bible is the word of God, yet don’t agree with what it says.

        I would like to know how you think these verses *don’t* call for the inequality and subjugation of women:

        “For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man (I
        Corinthians 11:8-9)

        Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11-14)

        “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

      • etcharrison

        Men and Women do have certain roles to fill according to the Bible. If people have a problem with the Bible and God so what? They will have no part of God if they sin deliberately or pick what they want and leave the rest.

      • Cheryl Barrow

        The fact that were still looking at each other from the male female perspective is a problem in its self because He “the creator”Said let’s make “man” in our image and fashion them male and female that statement alone indicates equality. The fashioning represents the reproductive process not the value or importance of one or the other. After all he’s no respect of persons. Nor is he the author of division.

      • Pastor Iniobong Davies

        .Clarke, even though the write up by John is of a greater percentage ok but I will like to remind us that sentiments be removed when looking at this issue. From Adam till now human beings tend to blame others for their woes. I mean so many, who are not serious with anything in life not even in God will catch in on this ‘Yeah John is right!” but we have forgotten that the world today is drifting towards anti God as the bible had said. Yes I know some church leaders helps in fulfilling this prophecy but some are completely not ready for God. On the other issue of women and the church, It is a matter of understanding who you are in God. I Cor. 11:3 read it and you will see that Christ has never contested that position, man has never contested that position, why is the woman contesting it. The truth is that being under mans’ tutelage doesn’t mean the woman is a slave or inferior. NO that is how God ordain things to be. Infact the major reason for the numerous problems in the world today is that we are not following as it were God’s word but we allow humanistic ideologies to take charge

      • whisperingsage

        If you look up the interview of Aaron Russo about his friendship with Nick Rockefeller, Rockefeller had admitted to Aaron that the women’s movement was to get women out of the home so that the schools (the public school minds of mush mess) could gain more control over brainwashing the children. So that puts whole new light on that movement. I was raised by a single mother who was afraid of men, hated men, but had two girls out of wedlock. Not a feminist but a strong woman (5’1″, did everything herself as much as possible). her own floors, her own roof, wallpaper, false ceiling, made us help her, her own cars, in the 1960’s. Told everyone she was widowed, (which was a lie, because then it was still a stigma to have fornicated). But she worked when we were at school, or after something bad happened, only allowed her mother to babysit us. When we were old enough we were latchkey kids, and after about 8th grade I was homeschooled. Mama was still an atheist at that point. But she taught me to read at 3 and that was a great advantage to my self learning after that. I am OCD about reading.

        This I do know; my mother did NOT want the state to control her children and she did what she could to help us go beyond the system. Now it is even more important because the schools are deliberately failing, they are deliberately brainwashing, more obviously every year. They don’t even care if kids can spell when they graduate high school now. Even as a single Mom, an atheist mom, she was very proactive about our learning. And that is the real issue. Do you want the state to control your kids? Do you want the daycare center workers to be your kids’ mom? This is an issue non Christians should be alarmed about too. And if you look around, and see Pokemon players walk out into traffic, you will understand.

      • lookin4trace

        funny reading the male point of view.

        total waste.

      • Degotoga

        That is called Feminism. Which is a continuation of the woman’s original transgression, in which Eve wanted to be like God so she would be over Adam.

      • Hannah

        Have you ever read an article by MARGARET Fox or Fell a Quaker who argued for women’s leadership in the church called. “women’s speaking justified”

      • Judy007

        I don’t get it at all. Why are some churches hostile or not hostile when the bible tells us clearly. Why do people write books about G-d when the bible tells us clearly. Why do we go to different churches when G-d said the church is invisible. Why do women have this urge to preach? Why do CHURCHES have policies about everything when the bible is really clear.

      • Judy007

        I don’t understand the needs between sexes? what does that mean? the church can do what they SHOULD do (never hold back from one when it’s in your power to help). There are now billions of single moms. in south africa there are nurseries at HIGH SCHOOLS for the babies of the children – hey because they get a grand from the Government paid by Julius Caesar who gets taxes from the people. For me personally (not for you I do respect you) I don’t like listening to a woman preaching. Nor do I like them piloting a megatop Boeing. I start shaking and it’s involuntary. The BIBLE DOES say man and wife? I didn’t let my husband rear my babies, he did the hard things by playing ball and wrestling with them. But they slept on my body and the nutritious came from my body too and the whole world could fall, i wouldn’t hv looked up. Why has that changed so much do you think in about 10 years I think? Why do women now have nursery ROOMS for baby where tiny babies sleep? It scares me to death. She has to get up and go to another room? oh well… I hope it works out for you. “twas Jane Fonde and Germaine Greer??? says my mom, who fouled it up for all moms. The moment they told women to work, the inflation skyrocketed and my mom CRIED her heart out when the first one of us had to go to “CRECHE”. SHE said Fonda et al, made HER ilk pay for the stars’ guilty consciences towards their own. Dunno if she was right.

      • Judy007

        Isn’t it a case of listening and spitting out the chaff. The World is the one who deals in people’s “rights”. The church is invisible and it needs to just stay on that WORD road.

      • Grace Cohen

        If my job as a woman was held by a man…things would never get done.
        Each have a separate FUNCTION neither of which is made obsolete or distant from The Father of All.

      • Judy007

        I cannot understand why there is a women problem in churches. It’s a problem with every single club. The church of G-d is invisible. There is a slight inference of feminism even among the woman who are born again. It doesn’t gel.

      • Judy007

        Bible talk of The Church, and yet christians talk about CHURCHE-S (Plural) what does that mean biblically?

      • CatsPaw55

        Good ole boy club.

      • Judy007

        Am totally befuddled now. Which churches are hostile? Have you murdered someone, do you fornicate, are you a striker, do you hate your parents…. how do working women affect these place whatsoever? Are their children neglected? Actually, personally (so sorry) I don’t like to listen to a female in a pastor’s role. Women have fantastic roles everywhere. Plus it’s not about that building called church, the church is invisible. I don’t understand the word partner, nor the word equal. My mind finds these concepts abstract. G-d said the two become one and each has his role in that one-ness. Equality is something the world likes to banter about.

      • Judy007

        for one, you’re calling (is it your wife?) your partner? Why? Am learning a lot from these pages, never mean any harm. You don’t have to tell anybody about your personal relationship. If you beat your wife, that’s for the police, if you’re good to her and she to you, that’s nobody’s biz. It’s just normal surely?
        Sorry Edit: pesonally I don’t like listening to female preachers. It’s like sports, the strength is absent.

      • Bert Clayton

        The Bible has several narratives about women working outside the home. Ancient Israel, not backwards America that just recently came out of the woods, where instead of stone tablets, they have paper tablets, now electronic. Totally void of reading between the lines, picturing the narratives.
        Look at Ruth. Look at Proverbs traits of a virtuous woman.
        Where the Bible is topical and very limited in detail.
        For example, Christ not his apostles are pork. You know how this Is known? If he did good on the Sabbath and others wanted to kill him, if him or his apostles ate pork, it would have made the new York times. But wow to him who’s belly is his God.

      • Jassius
      • Anonymous

        I was a stay at home mom & the church was pleased as I do believe that is Gods ultimate goal for us to love how He designed the roles. He does provide to as He did for us immensely. I don’t believe the government should be raising our kids & only train them behind your back no matter how Godly they pretend to be its mostly a facade.The devil is slick, I’ve actually seen it more the other way though. That women who do choose to stay at home are treated horribly, looked down on,scrutinized, & insulted.However church’s talk the talk & when my H left after many sermons on how if the church was doing their job nobody on it would be on welfare then that was the first place they told me to go or filthy shelter. All those believers who were supposedly my family turned their backs,didnt offer a guest house,support,love, or anything to help me get on my feet,change my life. Jesus said we need action not just prayer. He said what good is it if you see someone in need & tell them go be blessed but do not offer them what they need! The disciples were so close,greeted each other with a kiss, were affectionate, ate together, there was not just one simply preaching but all spoke and gave input. People are leaving because the church is just another corporate business now. There is no closeness or a family feel. You don’t let family struggle. With all their resources & people they don’t care about single moms, or widows, or the poor. Open your doors & let people stay in the church. No why would they & most are involved in theb501.3c I believe it is something like that so they are not separate from the state & are worried about tax breaks instead of being free to do whatever God ordains. They preach the name of God but deny his power as the people do. They don’t get God does provide & you must trust that. When everyone all turned their back, I had no family or anyone. God was there & without saying a word would have people come up at a gas station and say I felt lead to give you this & it was a huge amount of cash. That has never happened before, was way far in another state so nobody new me & I wouldn’t have appeared homeless with my car still & children. I tell u it is real & people especially church’s just don’t get it at all.Help people at any cost,invite believers into your home, be hospitable cause Jesus said to & u will be blessed. We have left because we don’t want fancy clothes & all the stuff, mega church’s.How bout making mega shelters or complexes instead with no stipulations no stress & before telling people go do all these things let them rest & recoup & make it a family atmosphere that they probably never got.W e are tired of them just wanting the money & that is most of them don’t be fooled!They put on a good show but then don’t actually give or help. If you have the world’s goods and do not offer to those in need how are you a child of God? Giving to these ministries and charities are a scam too and we have caught on. They don’t even have to show what they spend it on then tell u it’s better to give to them not personally. The enemy is very deceptive & subtle. Jesus has called many out of the church & back to Him! I could go on & on at the things I have seen ,& the Jezebel spirit being tolerated,& narcissists.

    • Eric Young

      as a church organist for close to 30 years, I’ve seen many of you women catch all the hell. Particularly if you are young and attractive. In an ideal situation, if a young woman wants to get out of a life of prostitution, instead of receiving love, she’s being judged by what she is wearing. And even in some worse situations I’ve seen, being accused of trying to seduce all of the men in church. Who in their right mind would want to even come to a church like that? Instead of loving on this young lady, they’re too busy judging her for what she is wearing.this is one of the problems I personally have with the modesty doctrine. Its erroneous at best. And it teaches young girls at an early age to be ashamed of their bodies, instead of feeling good about it, and confident. You young women are expected to hold down all the duties in the church, yet they fail to see what you do outside of the church on your 9 to 5 jobs. Basically for the most part, women are not appreciated enough in church. Theres is crazy believe that you women have to cover up your bodies, in order to keep men from lusting, which leads to sin, which ultimately leads to death. Which in reality is total nonsense. You are not responsible for what goes on in my mind regardless of what you are wearing, or not wearing.I’m just sick of the legalism that often plagues the more fanatical churches like the Church of God in Christ. Holiness, and hospice dollar denominations. All in the realm known as Pentecostal. and I’m really tired of how the church like to try to frighten people to serve God. So yeah, there are many reasons why people are leaving the church. This article it’s just the tip of the iceberg as to why people are leaving the church and rose and people in church are sitting around wondering why.

      • BT

        Clarke, I agree that things seem to be a little unfair when it comes to rhetoric about dress. I believe that when men aren’t modest in their appearance (open shirts, gaudy attire, etc.), it should be addressed. Modesty isn’t the issue. There’s actually nothing wrong with it when applied to everyone. The thing is, clothing for women is made more provocatively than clothing for men. Thus, women’s lack of modesty is seen and addressed often. It often isn’t addressed in love, however, which is an issue.
        Also, even if a woman is fully clothed and wearing nothing that is mini or tight, she should feel confident in her body, which is for her husband. (His body is for her as well, as the Bible says;)
        In addition, her emphasis shouldn’t be on her body or sexuality, anyway. It should be on Christ.

        • A guy

          wow. You say a body is for a husband. At least you’re nice enough to say it is “also” for her. And you’re so disconnected you assume all women leaving have husbands. News flash–women today, and they’re right to believe it, see their body as their own and no one else’s. They share on their own terms. I pray for you.

          • Jill Stevenson

            but that’s not what the Bible says…which is what BT is stating.

          • Mel Lanier

            Yes and the Bible also says women are dirty and can become clean for two turtles. Hmmm….

          • GrimmEngineer

            Mistranslation by monks…

          • David L

            Which makes the entire racket suspect in every way. There’s nothing about any of these organizations that couldn’t have been mistranslated or otherwise willfully altered so why waste time participating in any of it at all?

          • GrimmEngineer

            And that is why the lord commanded his disciples to record the history and testimonies of his dealings with them. If we have many testimonies from many source gospels or books within the bible (and other sources) then we can see the big overall picture. It’s kind of like the first 4 gospels of the new testament, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. It is 4 different peoples story or view of the life of Jesus. It is 4 different people who saw the same thing but who have different stories that mesh together, sometimes imperfectly. But when taken together you can see the big picture. Jesus knew we were imperfect and that his word might be recorded imperfectly, which is why having his words from different sources helps to clarify things, sometimes greatly. This is also what separates the bible and other compilations of scripture (the book of Mormon has 15 separate books within) from the Koran (Quran) which is the word of a single individual with no other testimony or corroboration whatsoever.

          • skepticall1

            I’m curious how you can claim that we can see the big picture when we look at the first 4 gospels together? According to LDS beliefs, isn’t the Bible corrupt from its earliest origins? Do you not disparage it in many of your other comments elsewhere?

            Why then would the Bible allow you, as a member of the LDS faith, to see anything clearly? If it is as bad as you claim in your other comments, why would you even care?

          • GrimmEngineer

            By combining them. Sorry it confuses you. We us the bible. We just understand it isn’t perfect because of the work of men.

          • David L

            I understand your point, but nevertheless, four corroborated stories are incredibly easy to mistranslate *on purpose*. The council of Nicea, for instance, changed a vast amount of scripture along with introducing an insane amount of dogma all for the purpose of making christians and pagans coexist in some sort of peace. Saturnalia, the Winter Solstice, Easter, etc… The vast differences between the Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic versions of the bible – not to mention the many, many other less-known versions of Christianity – all have a core set of stories intermingled with many additional ones that are/are not canon according to any of the others. To then toss in the Book of Mormon simply contradicts the whole thing even more as it was written long after the rest of the situation was capped off with, “This story is complete and if you add or remove anything to/from it you’re going to hell.”

            I appreciate “peer review” in this case but calling any part of it “mistranslation” and then demanding that not all of it is/could be mistranslated is disingenuous. Either it is perfectly the word of a god, or it is a text that has been susceptible to manipulation by the hand of man since its authoring. There can be no in-between in this and since not a single piece of the original work is still in existence that can be translated without busting out a Dead Language dictionary, there will never be even a piece of the original text to reference for the purposes of translation verification.

          • Keith Chapman

            Turtle doves. As in birds.

          • Jill Stevenson

            can you put up the verse for that statement? I’ve never come across it.

          • Jill Stevenson

            and my comment was referring to the material presented at hand, staying on topic with what the conversation is about, not going off topic.

          • Jody Pussycat

            Leviticus 15:19-30

            And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.

            Leviticus 20:18

            And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

            Ezekiel 18:5-6

            But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, and hath not … come near to a menstruous woman…..



          • mopandisi

            I’m not spoiled. I am allowed to complain if I don’t like how I’m beating treated. I respect your experience and your religious choices. Please do the same for me.

          • lovsom2

            You say that people are going to church to get something out of it and we should be there to give thanks to the Lord. If that is true, can’t we praise and worship the Lord at home? Do you think that you have to make an appearance in church in order to pray and worship the Lord? We go to church for guidance and inspiration – if this is wrong than why do we even have churches and/or ministers?

          • lovsom2

            Jeremiah 3:15 – And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding

        • Idris Fariq Zakiim

          Brother I am a Muslim and a former Deacon in the Lutheran Church. Since we view Jeseus more similar to Christians than any other religion (we believe born to the Virgin Mary, performed miracles, great Prophet and teacher, will return one day and Muslims will give ourselves to protect him) I still have a love for Jesus and always will. Just be careful. The thoughts you expressed are what people put us down for. You are right though

      • BT

        Sorrryyy! I meant Eric, not Clarke…

        In addition, as a Christian, if something you’re doing or wearing is creating an issue and/or distraction from Christ, etc…it is your duty to correct yourself…Not get offended and upset.

        “…no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way” Romans 14:13 (KJV)

      • Charlotte

        I remember attending a church service where the entire message was about our duty women to submit to our husbands. This was in Sunday school, I was in middle school.

        • charlotte

          Correction: our duty as women*

      • Mildrianne Clark

        @ Mr. Young. I was raised COGIC and I do understand some of what you are saying. However, there should be some sort of modesty apparel. When I have worn clothes that were not so modest, I was approached by men of the cloth. There is a lack of love and it is being felt from others who are not so familiar with the doctrine or rule. The church should not frighten people to serve God. What I find usually is that when things like the way 2 dress, or other things that appear to be religious concept is there is a lack of understanding of that word. What people need to know is that one can go to hell for judging. One can go to hell for being self-righteous. Hold your head up my brother and don’t sweat the small stuff.

      • TJ

        Well put Eric. I ‘m in recovery from “church.” The problem is I love The Lord. I hunger for more of God and got beat down in my pursuit of God. The Bible states clearly about not forsaking the gathering of believers together but, whew! I was active in ministry and tried to put ministry behind me and just help people. Now, I am gently being wooed back to fellowship, by God, and I am petrified of making a commitment to a local church again.

      • RastaSister42

        Blessed to your words I was brought up it a Pentecostal Church and when I had my child I attended a COGIC church for 3yrs because I was a single mother everybody was telling me I need to be married dont where this,don’t have male friends, I found myself so depress and I just lost my mom to illness it was hard. I do not attend a church, I am a Rastafarian I been living a natural lifestyle I talk and pray to Jah and it truly is the best for me. I dont shun churches I just dont see me there.

      • jusme

        Excuse me Eric, but I’m a member of a Pentecostal church and I’ve seen nothing like what you have described. Our Pastor teaches the Word – the Bible. We don’t care what you wear, what you look like, where you’ve been, or what your past is. We want you to have a relationship with God. We love everyone and help anyone in need. So, don’t label Pentecostal people like you have in your article!

      • shandon tyres ellis

        That’s not what the word of GOD says.JESUS said Let the women who PROFESS GODLINESS dress modest.Modest mean decently and in order.A woman who say she is saved and love JESUS,is not going to come to GODS house with her breast showing.Nor will she try to show her front print and backside print.We heard what you said but what do GODS word say.We don’t change with the times and fashion of the world,we remain the same like JESUS.For JESUS is the same yesterday,today and forever and JESUS said,Be Holy for I am Holy.Telling a woman to cover up her body is not making them shame,rather its teaching her to respect herself.Yes its wrong for a woman to come to church dressed like a harlot,whore,prostitite,decoy,and seductress,if she say she serve JESUS.If she dont serve JESUS then,we expect her to come to GODS house dressed like a Wordly woman.In that case no one should say anything but if she is saved she should no better.JESUS spoke of people who put stumbling blocks in front of people.And Men and women can both entice each other with their bodies that’s why GOD tell women to dress modest.For the woman was made for the man.Men are more visual then women and are turned on by sight.Paul said that he wouldnt do anything to cause his brother or sister to fall.A woman who say she love GOD and herself don’t want to show her prints,breast or backside to a man that’s not her husband.For the body was not made for fornication but for GOD and we are the Temple of the HOLY SPIRIT.Should I take the Temple of GOD and join it with a harlot or even make it look like a harlot in the way I dress.You said alot but didnt offer what GODS word said about this situation.Women of GOD do what GODS word say,don’t take opinions like these because they will lead you further away from GOD.GOD BLESS.

    • Michelle Forbes

      You are woman. Go ahead and write what you want to say. Don’t wait for someone else to do it. Be courageous!

    • Mildrianne Clark

      @ Virginia Moher, God uses the women. Jeremiah said in the last days that the woman shall compass a man. You need to know who you are as a woman. Keep your self esteem up. Know your self worth as a woman. If you have a relationship with God, allow him to give you a peace of mind. Women are doing it all. They are holding down the home and working a nine to five. In some cases 2 full time jobs just to keep end’s meat. Do not allow the so-called church dictate your life.
      If one would really get in this word, and get a concept of what the word is really saying; one would not be so bothered about what the church thinks. One should care about what God thinks. The Lord will judge the church according to its behavior toward mankind. So I encourage you to keep your head up.

      • Tim

        If I understand self-esteem correctly, self-esteem is not a good thing. It has to do with how we see ourselves and because we are all under the curse of sin our minds don’t always think rightly. For instance we often compare ourselves to others, which can make us feel either superior or inferior. God’s own chosen people failed to go into the land that God promised to give them because of an incorrect sence of self-esteem. When Moses sent 12 spies into the land to assess the situation 10 returned and gave this report.
        “There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their eyes.” Numbers 13:33
        The “sons of Anak” were Giants. If Israel would have seen themselves as God saw them, if they would have trusted Him instead of their own stinking thinking they would have went in and taken the land that God was going to give them. If people would only see themselves as God sees them, there would not be all these issues you all have been messaging about. God sees people as so valuable that even when man had rebelled against He sent His one and only Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for mankind’s sin. He bought us not with silver or gold, but with something much more precious, His only Son.
        So, what does it matter what others think of you? Realize that you have infinite value because you were bought with the very costly thing there was, the blood of Christ Jesus. And don’t even begin to think you are better than anyone else because Jesus shed His blood for ALL who will put their faith and trust in Him.

    • Avril Brown

      Virgina- Do I KNOW what you mean! I was publicly humiliated in a church for several years. I was accused of so many things that I do not have time to say them all. I was preached at and laughed at by leaders. The only reason I stayed is because the presence of God was there, and in recognition of the fact that the clergy are themselves only human kept me sane. The problem seems ultimately to be twofold: 1. there are people who think they have never sinned, or at least in such a Holy position that they are somehow Holier than others, and 2. SOME of the problems I have faced in churches is from men who were actually in lust and rather than to admit that they project it onto the woman. So wrong. Another problem is that people get their ideology confused with their theology. By that I mean, they want all kids raised by single moms to be raised the same as if they were in two parent households, yet they demand the Moms to work outside the home. They refuse to lift a finger to help in any practical way since, if they were REALLY saved Jesus would take care of their needs. Or at least that is the attitude. Then when anything goes awry, of course it is that sinner single Mom’s fault. God help us!

    • Linda Sealey


    • Sherry Wilmoth

      Virginia, The expectations that the church places on women is taken right out of the culture during the time of Moses and Jesus Christ. I am a student of the Bible – love it – have read it through using a different translation every year for 18 years. Have taught almost every book in it. One thing I have learned is that God works in the culture and allows the people to evolve. He is working in the hearts of people, not the culture. The people who Moses led would never be able to understand the culture that Christ came in to. They went through the hardship of 40 years wondering in the wilderness until all the old culture died. They went through kings, prophets and into captivity to become the people that Christ could come to and he brought a new covenant to the world that met the people where they were in spite of the culture.
      The more I study the Bible, the less I care for “The Church.” It makes me sad – my father was a minister. Through my study, I have outgrown “The Church.” The most vocal are no different than the Pharisees that Christ dealt with. Read Matthew 23:13-15; “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. (Some manuscripts read: You shamelessly cheat widows out of their property and then pretend to be pious by making long prayers in public. Because of this, you will be severely punished.) “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites for you cross land an sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!”

      My suggestion to you is study the words of Christ and live by them as closely as you can. WWJD – What would Jesus do? The answer throughout the Bible is in many places but I quote Micah 6:8 “do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.”

      May God richly bless you in your path.
      Sherry Wilmoth

      • Virginia Moher

        Thank you. That’s what I try to do, follow in the footsteps of Jesus.

    • Mary Ellen

      Our own Pastors’ wives are employed outside the home! We get it. Women need to work, to help support the family – in this day and age it is nigh unto impossible for them NOT to be employed in some capacity whether it is outside the home or whether they work from home. They should not be judged for that – they should be supported and encouraged and have someone alongside them to help them deal with the pressures of job and family – that is another function of the church. The church needs to take a serious look at itself and remember that for which it was begun – are we at all like the Acts church? We must remember we are to be salt and light – our salt has lost its savor, and our lamps have grown dim, and are hidden behind the glitter and the glitz.

    • sean

      Life in general puts demands on women.

      • Virginia Moher

        thanks, Sean. I shared this on FB

    • Lee Ebbs

      Wow, really? cause you know the church is there to cater to your every feeling huh? Try reading your bible. If you have “guilt and shame” then the reason is your sin so you can stop trying to blame any one else. You must repent and be born again (John 3) a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17)

      • Michael Scott Rash

        You’re a terrible person, and an even worse advocate of Christ. She said nothing about “guilt and shame.”

      • Virginia Moher

        Maybe that’s the crucial question. What is the church there for? Lee, I seriously don’t need the advice you just gave me. In fact, it’s that kind of knee jerk response that drove me away. Where is the love? All I see is judgment and since you are no better a person than I am, where do you get off?

      • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

        Lee Ebbs, you are the type that has made me run – not walk – RUN away from church and organized religion. Try reading YOUR bible and decide if you’re a Christian… which means, of course, a follower of Christ. One who want to emulate Jesus. You ain’t even close, buddy.

    • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

      Virginia, I am so glad that people DID actually respond to your post above. Some of the commenters, though, need a few lessons in humility and Christ-like behavior. I hope you have peace and comfort with your relationship – as do I – without the dogma of church getting in the way.

    • Anna Leighton

      Not so where I have attended.

    • Donna Longino

      I have written my perspective…and would welcome sharing the resulting essay with you. If interested, would you share an email address to which I can forward a PDF?

      I app l aud your comments and hope more women become more vocal about the failure of the Church to include them.


    • Simon Mwebaze

      Hi Virginia,

      Have you considered whether you’re fellowshipping in the Church of God or those of men which are numerous? If those at the church that you were part of are believers, how is it they do the things they do and the Lord hasn’t corrected them? Doesn’t the Lord keep His from such acts as the ones you describe? Doesn’t He correct those that are His?

      Heb 12:6-8 MKJV

      (6) for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives.”

      (7) If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?

      (8) But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.

      Here are some papers that may be helpful in your search, not for a church, but for the Lord.

      May you consider that the issue isn’t with the churches but within. God is just in all His ways. If we suffer evil, its always good to go to Him and find out why. There’s ever a cause:

      Pro 26:2 MKJV

      (2) As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse without cause shall not come.

      Gen 18:25 MKJV

      (25) Far be it from You to act in this manner, to kill the righteous with the wicked. And far be it from You, that the righteous should be as the wicked. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

      I hope you consider.

    • Simon Mwebaze
    • Jody Pussycat

      And…. if you get divorced in my experience they side with the man. And during a time when you need them most. Sad.

    • Victoria, first and foremost we don’t go to church for people to meet our needs we go to church because God wants us there. He wants us there to make a difference in our lives and in other people’s lives. If the place you are going to does not make you feel like you are a part of the family of God… find somewhere that does. Find a location that allows you to use the spiritual gifts that God has given you. Make sure you are doing what you are doing for affirmations from God, because people will always disappoint you. I left a congregation because I was absent for 5 months and no one cared. They knew that that I have a critical illness and was taking care of a cousin who had stage 4 terminal cancer. Not a single phone call from the minister or ministry leadership team. Not an e-mail of encouragement, and not a sympathy card when my cousin finally died. I wrote to the pastor and told him how I felt. His response was. I can’t read your mind. What do you want from me. I sent a smile as a respond. Then he clarified his position by telling me that the death of his close friend, the death of his mother, and now the death of his wife’s father just left him senseless. However, he ended this e-mail with I can’t read your mind if you don’t tell me what you want I can’t help you. I really didn’t want anything from the church in terms of monetary support. I just needed to know that someone in the leadership of that church cared that i was missing for 5 months,. I am no longer attending that church. I found out that a congregation of the church I attended since I became baptized in London, UK is close to where I am living. I drive an hour away to attend church at that small congregation.

      1.First determine what it is that you are looking for from your church family. Make a long list of those items. Be honest with yourself.

      2. Second ascertain if these desires line up with what the word of God says the purpose of the church is supposed to be.

      3. Third ascertain if you have transferred needs that only God can meet to people. This happens more frequently than we realize.

      4. Fourth determine the strength of your vertical relationship with your Savior. What are your expectations from that relationship? Who moved in the relationship-him or you?

      5. Finally, what were the pressures that you placed upon yourself while you were in your previous congregation? If you served in that congregation why did you serve? Make sure that you are totally transparent with yourself about the reasons why you did what you did? I think that this will be a most revealing self-check for you.

      Many of us go to church for the wrong reasons. It is not supposed to a social club or something that we do on Sunday mornings because that is the expectation.

      I had to ask myself these same questions when after 34 years of marriage my husband committed adultery and decided that he wanted a divorce. I did not want the divorce. I forgave him.. he could not forgive himself. There was no one in leadership in my congregation who could help me with this new phase of my life. I needed counseling and no one was there for me. So, I prayed about it and God sent me to a congregation who helped me to heal. Most pastors cannot handle divorced women. They have no clue what to do with them. Some of them don’t know where to use them in ministry because they think it is a sin to do so. That is there problem not mine. That is there lack of clarity on God’s word not mine. I will not embrace some else’s theology and allow it to cause me to be disobedient to God. That is my ministrypage you cancontact me there if you just need an ear. You are not the only one Virginia. I know that.

      God bless!!

      • Virginia Moher

        I have to disagree that we “don’t go to church for people to meet our needs”. Yes, we do. Read your own writing: “I just needed to know that someone in the leadership of that church cared that I was missing for 5 months”. That was a need that you had that involved a person (not God). Women have strictly defined roles in the church as givers. Then we are shamed when we need something given to us like understanding, compassion, just a little tiny bit of attention and recognition. Those things are FREE, and for that leader to say he didn’t know what you needed because you didn’t tell him was bogus. The church system is designed to make men feel good about themselves as leaders and favorites of God; someone way more important and crucial than their wives are. That fulfills a man’s need for admiration and competency. When men cheat on their wives, it’s no big deal, just a little confession and 5 minutes later they are good to go. No need to delve into how the wife feels about being humiliated. I don’t need to “check myself”. I have checked out. The church will never have anything I want until they change how they discriminate against, use and neglect women.

        • The point is I did not stop going to church altogether. I found a place where people demonstrated what James wrote about. Pure religion . . . . is to visit the fatherless ad the widowed. I am a spiritual widow. Refusing to go to church would be in direct disobedience of an expectation of God Virginia. Find a place where you can worship in spirit and in truth. Let them know upfront what your situation is. I did with this pastor and he did not care. So I went somewhere where I was certain that if the fibrolyamgia was out of control and I could not drive myself to church them someone would be there to assist me. I would never stay home from church because of people’s in appropriate behavior. This is the second time that I have had to remove my membership because of a life crisis that no one was willing to address with me. The first time was when I was going through the divorce, The pastor pretended that it didn’t exist. A divorce was not in my radar for my life it came out of left field. Of course I knew my husband was sliding in the opposite direction when he stopped going to church because he was offended by the pastor. But what happened after that I did not expect. I don’t go to church to please any man woman and or child. I go to church to participate i communal worship because my Heavenly Father says that I should.

          I will not attend a congregation where that is not a pleasurable experience. We wrestle against all sorts of evil outside of the body of Christ we should not have to do the same battle within the body of Christ.. The Leadership styles of some pastors in congregations is not for all people. So, my advice is pray about it and find a place where you are comfortable.

    • Mary Carroll

      I think the first problem is each one of us needs to fall in love with ourselves first. I am here for one purpose and that is to love my God with all my heart, mind and soul and to love my neighbor as God wants me to. The love that we are to show to God is appreciating all that He has given us no matter what. Sometimes those rough holes are to help us grow. Loving my neighbor as first someone created by God in His image, caring for them, respecting them. The Church is an instrument that God handed down to us through those that followed His Son Jesus. This instrument gives us the ability to reach out and find the His grace to help us along this path here on earth. When we really use the ability that He gave us to touch our own hearts and the lives of so many other type of people we then can fully process our reward upon our deaths. I am here for one purpose and that is to gain my entrance into His light. I am not delusional. I have been through it almost all of it. Within this process I have learned to forgive those that have overshadowed me and mine by taking my possessions, I have been witness to the lack of love by people who are takers and not givers (not in a monitory way), I have lost the love of my life, I have lost most of what I thought was important only to realize that it really wasn’t what made me me. So as I continue to plug along in this life, I can only say that all is well with God by my side, my faith to hold me up, and hope that one day I can once again be with my love.

    • Jason C. Piecuch

      First comment on this is from a woman “wanting a woman’s perspective”

      The church today is ALL about women, and shaming men….that’s why the men left.

    • Evg Terri Dionne Wooten-Graham

      Good Morning, Virginia! My name is Terri Dionne Wooten-Graham, and I DEFINITELY agree with EVERYTHING you are saying – both in this post, and two posts down! I am MORE THAN HAPPY to share my viewpoint – as a woman whom has LIVED what you are talking about!! My first book that I wrote 11 years ago ( is entitled “When the Pastor Dumps You: Going From First Lady to Single Lady!” As a woman, when you do EVERYTHING the church tells you to do, yet the pastor dumps you to find a “dream” girl, anyway; Or, if you are married to someone who is verbally abusive and emotionally cruel – yet that pastor won’t take a stand against horrible behavior on that husband’s part (the “male code”), as a woman – you’re in trouble – and on your own (sigh)! I have just finished my second book, entitled “You are NOT a “toilet:” Learning to see yourself through God’s Eyes!” Here, I take the readers on my journey of allowing myself to be “boo-booed” on (like a toilet), until I allowed the Word of God to penetrate my soul! Although I am an Ordained Evangelist, it has been a journey KNOWING who I am – in Christ Jesus – as a WOMAN! I share in this book the challenges I have had with insecure pastors and a horrible-acting husband (whom NO pastor would take a stand against). God HIMSELF took the time to teach me that Women DO matter to Him! Here is an “excerpt” from my book:

      “Look at some of the other stuff that I had to endure,
      however – My stepfather was a pastor – who molested me, and used to beat me in
      my face, I was married to a pastor who dumped me (and, our kids) to “find a ‘dream’ girl, I have had situations with
      pastors who 1) could not carry a tune in a bucket, yet, they let their ego and
      pride get the best of them, and, as a result – tried to run the choir – with no
      anointing, 2) have called me a “whore” and a “Jezebel” over the pulpit, 3) “dogged”
      me in front of EVERYONE publicly, then called me into the office privately to
      apologize, 4) hid behind “protocol” and being “politically correct” (repeatedly), instead of being a true
      pastor and reprimanding bad and horrible behavior on the husband’s part (this caused me not to feel safe or valued
      at this particular church, in this area, because the message (repeatedly) came
      through LOUD and CLEAR, that as wives – we are not protected at this particular
      church. This taught me to only invite senior citizens and kids – no couples
      whatsoever!!!!!!); {As a side note,
      as I have talked to lots and lots of people – including pastors – as well as pastor’s
      and preacher’s wives over the years, I am finding that 9 out of 10 times (if not 10 out of 10 times) – if pastors
      REFUSE to take a stand against
      horrible behavior on a husband’s part – concerning that wife, it’s because a)
      He’s beating his own wife, b) he’s got the “male code” thing going on (“men gotta stick together – no matter
      what…..”), c) He has a child outside of his own marriage, thereby feeling “un-worthy” of pointing the finger at
      another husband, d) He is afraid the husband will retaliate against him,
      personally – or the church, e) He is afraid that that man will leave the church, and/or f) He has no
      pastoral “b – – – -” when it comes to
      holding another man accountable! In these situations, with these types of
      pastors (AND, I THANK GOD, FOR ALL OF
      wife or a woman has no recourse, but to draw closer to God, learn His voice for real – and learn to be led
      by His voice, not being sure if the pastor’s “voice” is operating out of the
      concern of a good shepherd, or out of pride and ego, or out of his need to
      control, or out of coercion (I’ve seen
      pastors allow men in the church to disrespect the women, with their response
      being – “I don’t see where he has done anything wrong……”)! I have seen firsthand, and/or experienced firsthand ALL of the above – and I know
      EXACTLY what I am talking about!} 5) Told me they don’t answer to no one
      but God (in my opinion, the most
      dangerous person in the world is NOT the one with all of the guns, but a
      spiritual leader or pastor – with NO accountability!!!); And, 6) I have
      seen plenty of pastors BULLY the people
      of God, causing saints to be afraid to learn
      God’s voice for themselves, for fear of being told that they are “rebellious” or “on their way to hell,” if they don’t (basically) allow the pastor to do all of their thinking for them (For those of you that are dealing with
      those types of pastors, please, please read Ken Blue’s Book – “Healing
      Spiritual Abuse – How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences!” It will
      change your life, and restore YOUR faith in God, concerning His purpose, and
      good plan – for YOU, on this earth!!!!)!! They will say comments, such
      as “God ain’t said nothing to me, so
      therefore, He has not said anything to you…!” And, don’t you dare question
      any “contrary behavior” on a pastor’s part, because, then, you will hear
      comments like “Touch not my anointed,”
      from those same pastors, who are really saying – “Don’t you dare hold me accountable for my mess, my ego, or my
      wrongdoing – don’t you know God and I are as “thick as thieves,” and, He will
      put you in check, long before He says anything to me, the pastor? God might strike you down with lightning, for daring
      to question or hold me accountable for my bad behavior….!” I know how
      that sounds, but that is the mentality of an un-accountable pastor, walking in the flesh! I have known of pastors who left their first wives, gone out and gotten new wives – and, new congregations! Can you imagine the message that that sends to
      that former First Lady (Check out one of
      my four TV Shows – “Nothin’ Like Church Folk!” where I deal with that topic –
      “What about the Former Pastor’s Wife?” Usually, she has given that pastor the
      best years of her thighs, given him children, made untold sacrifices, and stood
      by his side – who repays her by going out and getting himself another wife, and
      another congregation (sometimes))? I could go on and on, but, I don’t want
      you all to think that all pastors are
      like that, because there are PLENTY of (male) pastors in our churches, who
      treat the women and the wives with the same respect, that they would want for
      their own daughters – from a man!!!!!!! I shared this with you all to let you all know, that I had NO CHOICE but to
      develop a relationship with God for myself, because, there have been a few
      pastors, that I could not trust with
      my soul – at all, so I would cry out to God, and let Him know what I was
      experiencing at different times, and, that I do love our pastors (and,
      have forgiven each one of them – a long time ago)! However, if you deal
      with an insecure leader or pastor –
      who is threatened by the anointing in
      your life – they will make your life hell
      – in “Jesus’ Name,” of course…….!”

      The purpose of this book is to bring
      about accountability and create awareness of the damage we do with our tongues
      and our actions, without necessarily knowing it. This book is also an ADVOCATE
      VOICE for those victimized by those same tongues and actions, and how the Lord
      will bring you through triumphantly – every single time! – “BAM!”

    • Jan Bowman

      Christ did not ask us to follow the church he asked us to follow him. The majority of churches in America are back slid .and have become an organization rather than a living organism. I am so sorry for your hurt sand disappointments .and when it comes to how women are treated in the church. I have had plenty disappointments in that area. However precious I dont follow the church I follow CHRIST!!!! Yet I love the church, even backslid churches because GOD has said he is married to the back slider. God knows how to bring many churches unto repentance. and that will take his righteousness judgments because he said judgment begins in the house of GOD first. Precious dont be bitter or you can become just like the people that hurt you, been there done that. Ask the holy spirit to help you locate a church or a good fellowship where you fit in. The body of CHRIST needs each other and I am certain there is church or a fellowship where you will fit in. God loves you so much and he wants to heal your wounds through a personal relationship with him and that is all that matters , that you find CHRIST in that very liniment relationship with him. JESUS loved women so much, his ministry is full of his way he treated women and well read about how he treated women and let him heal you.

    • ken

      Well said. I totally agree, OHH the pastors wife might play the piano or something but to relate the pressures Women are under in today’s society, they speak with fork tongue

    • Joe

      Wow. A irrelevant feminist diatribe in response to a great article. There are many churches where the emotional and social needs of MEN are not met. There is so much depression, suicide, drug and porn abuse. It’s really depressing. The femenist agenda has worked hard to get rid of authority, sound doctrine, good order, and fatherhood. Yet, they are still not happy!

    • whisperingsage

      I think it really depends on the church. We have to KNOW our Bible and see what it says about women, the Proverbs 31 woman was a very active business woman, and a very important person in her own right. And we have to judge our church and our pastor by the Bible, and if there is an issue, bring it up in private to the Pastor or after service if there is a question period or a bible study and bring up the verses. I had a lot of issues with some of the women in the bible until I got a satisfactory answer from the pastor that now is my husband.
      For example, the horrible rape and death of the concubine in Judges 19, was not a moral lesson how proper behavior, it is a chronology of history, the precursor to a war. The man’s behavior was vile, and the result of the decision was vile, it was not an excuse for all to do the same. But it was important in the history of the people of God because it caused a great war among all the tribes of Israel.

      God is just showing how mankind will always make the wrong decision, and ultimately, only God Himself can save us from ourselves and our sin. (Jesus)

    • Cyndi

      That would be a completely different article. It’s interesting how one unrelated can send all the dominos falling down. Just look at the comments that follow.

    • Vanessa Benoit

      sorry to hear. could be location. come live in Hawaii where we’re all too broke to just let one person work and have the other stay at home. everyone has to work just to survive 😛 churches won’t look at you funny for working here 😛

    • Judy007

      They cannot preach about women outside of the bible context and women know what the bible says about them. Unfortunately Jane Fonda, Germaine Greer etc came along in the 60’s and whispered in women’s ears to go and get that job and let your ambition rise up in your. My mom cried and said Jane Fonda, because of HER guilty conscience about HER children, made the whole world’s mothers go to work, because the moment they did that, inflation came in and all women HAD to work given our precious offspring to nurseries/creches from 3 months. That is probably why the Babyboomers were the first children who openly rebelled against their parents and the world (hippies, etc) and their poor hapless moms knew in their hearts, if only I had brought them up at my knees. Babies who are put in creches have a sense of abandonment all of their lives because they craved their mothers physical touch and loving which no stranger could EVER give them, PLUS they had to fight for that little bit of attention from that stranger. Thus within our own homes our children became orphans with mothers and fathers intact.

    • Ponce Turner

      I have been so very lucky picking a house of worship, when I became ill and my meds cost more than my check each month, I took it to one person and I left it there, so I’m not worried about what the church need to bring soul in, The reason stated in the article are not why I don’t show up, there no money for me to go anywhere
      My people as stated the world my God these people visit me, take me places don’t embarrass me because they know what’s going on with me,
      I think when we preach every one hear what needed to get than through the week and if they hear something to pass on to a child, or a stranger, we have done enough,

    • Kawana Rose Hanick

      I am a woman and he said what he said just fine. God’s word is written to us all. Proverbs 31. If you think the church places to much on women who work outside the home. Read it. She did both. However she also had people helping her. She was wise enough to figure it out. She was a business woman and took care of her house. Albeit she was hypothetical. She was a metaphor of what women can be and what we should strive to be. Honestly, she was wasn’t worried about me time and down time and vacations and all the trivial stuff we place to much value on. We have been programed to think we need much more than we do. We don’t realize how much self we put into things. It all about how much I can have for me and still be there for my family. Not saying you do that, just saying it’s been ingrained in us lately, and we don’t even realize it. And by the way. Do not judge yourself according to what you see other women doing. That is a huge mistake we all make. We should strive to be the best we can for us and our family. 🙂

    • greatguy999

      Seriously? What expectations? Care to educate us?

  • Regina

    You need to come to a kingdom hall where everyone gets to open their Bibles and discuss the day’s lesson. Better yet, when Jehovah’s people reach out to you at your own home, how about you ask for a personal Bible study… there is a Biblical reason you are not feeling loved and refreshed by your church.

  • Tim Parker

    Agree with the author. Good stuff. For those who commented below, I would love to know how involved you were in the churches you didn’t like. Did you serve? Did you try to head up the efforts to do the things you said the church wasn’t doing? I understand that new believers aren’t in a position to head up anything but as somebody who works at a “megachurch” the people who are critical tend to be the ones who aren’t involved. Once people get involved they figure out that making the church better is a team effort. The church staff alone can’t solve all of the problems.

    • Cheré Robinson

      I was the minister of music of my childhood church for YEARS (15- 28 years old). I rarely missed a service and for the most part, the church was all I had ever known. New years eve/day? I was at church serving for watch night. During college I would drive 45 minutes (one way) every weekend to get to church to lead Praise and Worship. When I began to get burnt out, my pastor made me feel like it was “my fault” because he had given me all of the Godly tools needed to be successful in ministry. So anything I wasn’t doing was because of my lack of discipline or inability to “listen to God’s voice”. Needless to say, many people have left that church now & while it was a hard decision, many of the items listed in this article I TOTALLY agree with. It’s been almost 3 years since I’ve played the piano or even sang for a church due to the immense stress, under appreciation and manipulation I endured. I love the Lord, but it took me a long time to let go and forgive all the things I went through while serving in a church. I know both sides, and now that I have moved to Florida and found a new church home I am beginning to let down those guards that were built for many years…but if you asked my former pastor I’m sure he’d still tell you it was “in the name of the Lord”.

      • Patrick OCallaghan

        sorry you got burnt…. On the roles/leader, or ‘ministry’, you said you had. I often read folks stating they are ‘worship pastor’. You know the Word says test all things. The problem for me is that the NT gives many roles, but unlike deacon, evangelist, elder, etc, ministry of music [praise and worship] isnt there. Charismatic churches are centred on music and ‘worship’ – and the NT church was not. In fact Worship goes far beyond singing songs and music [obedience is also worship]. No-one in the NT is saved via music, worship, songs or hymns, yet charimatics push that mantra, maybe it began with Calvary Chapel, and Rick Warren also. As for the ‘worship’ songs – listen to the lyrics. How often do you hear a Scripture in the words? The tone is fleshly romanticism, where Christ becomes the lover/boyfriend. ‘Lacodicia’ false fleshly/worldly churchianity will be spat out – beware!

  • Ed Taylor

    I agree with everything you’ve said, EXCEPT we’ve planted a church that was designed to address all of those things, and young people are “one and done” every time. Too many dirty, homeless people, I guess. I don’t know for sure because no one ever gives us feedback when they don’t come back.

    We are conversational and interactive, deeply missional, and unafraid of questions. We speak in simple, modern language, we love like it matters, and when we say, “come as you are,” we mean it. So if this is what you’re looking for, where are you?

    I’m trying not to be cynical, but it seems to me that everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. “We want those things, as long as you also have a large, vibrant children’s program, and we want you to welcome outsiders, as long as they are the same kind of outsider as me.” At least that’s how it feels.

    In the 14 months since we planted this church, many beautiful things have happened, and people who feel like you feel are the only ones who stick, but my heart aches every Sunday as Willow and Harvest on either side of me continue to draw thousands and we keep plugging along wondering how we’re going to make it through the year. Not bitter, just sad.

    Addressing all these issues you mention is the deepest desire of my heart, and I wouldn’t have it any other way, but where are you?

    • Sheena

      Hang in there! God is at work…just not in the way we always expect.

      • Ed Taylor

        thanks. trying.

    • davegilbertson

      If you are doing what God has called you to do and are following that calling as illuminated in scripture do not be dismayed. Also do not fall into the trap of ‘measuring’ your success in the way the world does. Your field is the hearts, souls and spirits of those you have been entrusted. The fruit of your labor is their spiritual worship, by living out their lives as a living sacrifice to God.

      God’s blessings of peace, joy, grace, and courage to you Ed.

      • Ed Taylor

        Thanks, Dave. Your encouragement is appreciated, and I feel exactly the same. However, it doesn’t change the fact that we are supposedly offering exactly what this post says is missing in churches today, and yet none of the young folks who are leaving the old school are finding their way to us. We have put ourselves out there in dramatic ways, but the response of young visitors to the very thing they are looking for, as I mentioned, is to back carefully out the door and never come back. I want to reach those folks, but it feels like a lot of talk and not much follow through.

        • MyoungSr

          I a seeing this 4 years after it was posted, so, you may have moved on, but I hope not. Anyway, I read some of your ‘other posts and comments’ and you are definitely on the fringe, appealing to the fringe. You seem to be agenda driven (please, no offense intended here). Drop the opinions and DO JESUS. Period. You sound smart enough, so stop filtering everything through your post modern lense. Meet people as Jesus would meet them, and that is right where they are living, then present them with the Gospel – period. If you have questions about that (theological or philosophical, etc) just repeat His Words. Hope you get what I am saying, because, big numbers like Harvest or Willow Creek is a mirage – they both are in collapse now. DO JESUS.

        • fedup

          The church leaders won’t help out members they tell you to live in your car and sale everything you have. I was told to sale my car, get rid of my phone and turn off my cable. After my car broke down and I got it fixed they won’t even help me with rent. I’ve never been treated so bad in my life by the Bishop who thinks he is God. It will be a cold day in hell that I’ll ever go back.

    • Ukulelemike

      I feel you, brother. I am in a small town, and our little church keeps plugging along, while seeing the rock and roll church draw people in through entertainment, and another church brings them in according to race. Neither is evangelistic, while we are, yet we lost our building due to lack of funds, because most of our few folks have nothing to give. But as Dave Gilbertson said, if you know you are in God’s will, and are doing things His way, then keep on! If there is one soul hungry for the word, its enough to keep going!
      I was getting very discouraged lately, thinking to step down, but then, a couple came in, and that night, he was born again, and baptized the next week, and it was exactly the encouragement we needed! Now we will train them up as disciples, and let God do the rest. Its HIS church, anyways, He will bring the increase.

      • Ed Taylor

        I hear ya, brother. I am in the third largest city in the nation, and I experience the same thing. But I told my little band of hard-scrabble believers and seekers that I had no intention of going anywhere.

        But I still wonder where this magical holy grail – the dispirited youth – is hiding. Come out, come out, wherever you are! Sometimes it feels like Bro. Pavlovitz and others like him are just putting out a “grail-shaped beacon” (pardon the Python reference).

        Maybe what we need is an article on how to find this mysterious group without selling out and going “Willow-lite” which is what still seems, at least from my perspective, to be drawing them.

    • Dain Q. Gore

      Also, it is happening, and people like Ed are doing…but are we talking about those who are doing something about it or just focusing on those who aren’t?

      • Ed Taylor

        Right. And I’m hesitant to pine after the mainstream. I don’t want to sound jealous at all – I’m not. I have NO desire to be the mainstream, but it would be nice, in a town of 76K in the middle of a metropolitan area of millions, if a few of those folks would come out of the woodwork, y’know? But I’ll keep looking…

    • Laura

      went to church that purported to do all these things but was really a more modern, trendy version of all above. They loved each other (the tiny click) so very, very much that they just couldn’t understand why no one else was feeling very loved or committed. Check yourself and see if you’re still holding to “your” idea of what church ought to be and who should be there or if you are listening. You should be able to talk to a new person to know why they came the very first time. If you don’t, you aren’t trying very hard.

      • Ed Taylor

        I talk to every new person. They’re all coming back until they aren’t.

        • Todd Duren

          Ed: I think I understand. I’m a member of a small, progressive UCC plant deep down in the Deep South. I’d like to chat privately and see if we can support each other and keep our hearts out of the ditch. Message me on Facebook, please. Brother in a christ, Todd Duren

          • Ed Taylor

            I think I just sent you a Facebook message.

      • Ed Taylor

        Also, I know exactly what you are saying. Before I launched this church, I visited tons of places just like you’ve described and found these vibrant, growing churches that just looked like chips of the old Willow Creek block. Great preaching. Great music. But I could walk in and walk right back out without anyone even noticing I was there.

        What I see is article after article and book after book about how the young are leaving churches like Willow (and even more the churches that are still living in the 50’s) because they are looking for something authentic. And yet, when they find it, it’s too scary for them.

        We put our money (and our time) where our mouth is – that’s why we have more homeless at our church on Sunday than any other church in town, because when we say we love people where they are, we mean it. We can’t help them the way the big churches can, but we give them community that they can’t fine elsewhere.

        I still believe in what we’re doing, regardless of who comes, but I just want to know how to find these young people that everyone’s talking about. And in the meantime, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing because it’s the right thing to do.

    • Mike

      Ed I feel your pain. Ive been there myself. Perhaps a solution would be for you to partner with a larger well funded church who could support you. You could be an outreach ministry of them and find both financial and human resources to help you achieve your vsion of helping those you are called to love. I assure you there are those in these megachurches who are longing to help in a ministry like yours but dont know how.

      • Ed Taylor

        Thanks, Mike. We are actually looking into this. We’re connected with an agency, but their financial support has an expiration date.

    • George

      The theme that is the major obstacle here is that the focus is still on getting folks to come. Jesus was sent and in turn sent His disciples. Nowhere in scripture do we see Jesus giving any instruction for getting folks to come to a building on a particular day of the week. Neither do we see it in the epistles.
      It seems that the concept of church has been institutionalized at the expense of the mission. At what point did it become acceptable to erect a building, institute a business plan, and then provide attractional programming to lure customers inside. Forming a missions department might make folks feel like they are following God’s will, but even this is absurd. God didn’t create the church and then give it a missions department. He initiated the mission and gave it a church.
      During the first 300 years of church history, which saw rapid growth, the members of the body met in homes. There was no CEO Pastor, since Christ was the true Head. There were no children’s or youth ministries, since families were the discipleship center. There was no mission’s department, since to be a follower of Christ meant that you were already on mission.
      The question isn’t “How do we get our folks to take the gospel out of the church walls?” Ther real question is “Who told us there were church walls?”

      • Cindy

        Wow. You’ve hit the nail on the head. We are supposed to be reaching the lost and building Gods church. Not building institutions for people to gather together and zone out for an hour or two so they can say they are a dutiful Christian. In this world we live in, it’s getting harder and harder to really just talk and get to know a person. Build an actual relationship. So, it’s going to be a slow process for those who are truly changing hearts out there and not just growing numbers.

      • Lowpocket

        “At what point did it become acceptable to erect a building, institute a business plan, and then provide at tractional programming to lure customers inside.”
        My guess would be – it started with Constantine when he made Christianity the official religion.

        “first 300 years of church history – no CEO Pastors, youth ministry, etc.”
        The oppression and abuse of the church during this period may be one reason no one thought it a good idea to institutionalize. Personal, familial, community – life and death – SURVIVAL – seems to have been the greater priority. A priority in which “faith” was developed, shared and lived together as it produced and gave HOPE for a future out from under oppression.

        The “MOTIVATION” of “church” participants (comparing past w/ present) seem to be at an extreme disconnect. Of course, the endeavors of those like Ed’s, seem to come the closest in the comparison, as
        many of the people they connect with are desperate for a “hope” that will get them through the present day.

      • Ed Taylor

        We do have every reason to believe that there were still gatherings that looked somewhat like what we do today. Check out the Didache. It outlines early church practices.

        They most likely still got together in larger groups. Jesus expected the Jewish structure to expand to include the outsider – but the synagogue structure was already in place to keep the message pure and to give people somewhere to congregate. This is why he spoke first to the Jew IMO. Then people like Paul would actually be able to reach and address the “church” in Ephesus, which was not a place, but a group of people.

        However, I agree with you in spirit. Not just trying to justify my existence, but I think gathering to get relationships off the ground is necessary in order for the kind of thing you suggest to happen. Especially in today’s society. Unfortunately, all of the things that the author advises against are also natural outcomes of these gatherings.

        Does anyone else feel like they are walking a tightrope?

    • DMA

      Us too! Planted 2 years ago and your comment sounds like one I could have written! I agree with the entire article except I’m not sure I understand some of “come as you are” point in it. I agree, come as you are but we can’t skip the don’t stay as you are and I didn’t get that from the article, that seemed skipped. A commitment to Christ is a new life and unfortunately many people want a Jesus who will let them continue to sin and that’s not who He is and when people profess faith but don’t want to stop sinning we can’t be tollerant of that and neither was Jesus. Love isn’t only accepting people as they are, it’s helping each other to be more godly everyday. Without that change then you may not know Him. 1 John talks a lot about that test of faith.

      • Brian Baldowski

        I think the point is not the initial “come as you are”. If a person comes in as a sinner and then becomes saved that is good. The problem I see too often in church is the rejection of people that are saved but then sin and are not forgiven. I saw a church body ostracize a friend because they dared to get a divorce from an abusive husband. The church, at that moment, should have embraced her instead of leaving her out in the cold. I agree that we should not stay as we are but we also need to be loved as much when we are Christians who sin as non-Christians are shown love.

      • Eury

        Are you saying that to belong to your church I need to stop sinning? You fucking hypocrite. Don’t you get that’s the whole problem? That’s why so many of us want nothing to do with you. My relationship with Jesus is between me and Jesus. You don’t want to help me be more godly. You want to judge me and shape me into your smug, self-congratulatory pious image. No thanks.

        • JimmyJam

          Your Jesus as you say it Does NOT exists except in your own mind. Jesus came into the world to love and help people but also to forgive them of their sins and tell them to go and sin no more. Yes that is a big hill to climb but climb we must. Do I fall down or slip some on the climb up you bet but he commanded us to climb and to help others on this climb not push them down but to help them up not to judge but to tell them of your own struggles and help guide them on their climb up. We all will never reach the top until after we are finished at the judgement seat of Christ. The path is sometimes hard and lonely but with Jesus by my side and what is the final outcome it will all be worth it to be with him forever. I feel sorry for you Eury. I struggle with things in my own mind and it is all I can do sometimes to go to church with all of what I see is going on behind the scenes. Man is sinfull and truly wicked in every way. The Lord walks with believers everyday to guide them to live better love better believe better care better walk better no where does it say we will be sinless but with Jesus & tue believers we will sin less.

        • Alethea Speakman Sche-Brogan

          Aho, Eury. Well said.

    • StrugglingtostayUM

      If you had thousands, you would not be able to give individual care. Hang in there. Help one at a time.

      • Ed Taylor

        I don’t want thousands. I just wonder where all of these young people are. I just want a few 🙂 In the meantime, we will do exactly that.

        • StrugglingtostayUM

          Sadly, the young people (and sadly more and more older people) do not feel the need to attend church. They are drawn to sports on Sunday or any number of other activities.

          • Ed Taylor

            Indeed. I might argue that THAT is what they’re leaving for. Entertain me to death, please. But that would be a completely different article, yes?

    • Brian

      Ed, I hear you brother. We planted a deeply missional church 3 years ago and we have experienced the same thing. Young adults and older adults who tell us they are all about getting messy and reaching those no other church is reaching, then leaving after two weeks because we don’t offer enough for them, have a rocking worship band or coffee bar. Sadly, most people like to talk about being the church and living sacrificially, but when it comes to taking the step, they run to what they know which is usually the local mega-church with the great worship “experience” and free Starbucks.

      As for this article, I don’t buy it. Sure, it all sounds nice, but there are plenty of churches who are seeking to exist beyond a building and Sunday morning performance and most of those churches are struggling or dying because most people SAY they want something different…until it comes time to actually be different.

      Keep the faith brother. We have seen the Lord do some wonderful things and has brought us a few people who really do want to live with purpose. Still struggling, but still hopeful.

      • Ed Taylor

        Brothers in arms. We should create our own Facebook group and call it something like “Missional in spite of indifference” of “Because we must” – We actually have pretty good music and fresh ground coffee, but it’s still a struggle. Blessings.

        • Brian

          Ha ha, we have coffee too and a good worship team. Just no smoke, lasers and professional lighting or staging. Or even a building of our own. I’ve been told we need some of those things in order to grow. I don’t want that kind of growth. As a 17-year youth pastor, the old axiom, “you keep them with what you got them” holds true with all ages. Youre right though…some get it and those saints are truly a blessing.

          Btw, I’d join one of those Facebook pages.

  • Jenell Mahoney

    I hope you’ll try one or more of the congregations in the United Church of Christ. In my congregation, we take seriously the denomination’s “motto”…”No matter who you are or where you are on life’s journey, you are welcome here.” Except we add “absolutely welcome!” Ours is a church with young and old, gay and straight, white, Hispanic and black members…we are active in the local Habitat group, serve at the homeless center, take kids to see their incarcerated parents once a year with Get on the Bus, and participate in a local community activist group “Faith in Action.” We sent work teams to New Orleans for five years following Katrina. We have members who have grown up here, ones who have come from conservative churches where they no longer felt welcome, conservatives, liberals and even those whose beliefs include those from other faith traditions as well (Buddhist, Hindu). We are all over the map politically…it’s a lively group! That said, I really resonated with the comments from Ed Taylor (below)…we too are a relatively small church, an “outcast” in a largely conservative area where there are several mega-churches. I often remind myself that Jesus began the transformation of the world with just a small group too…

  • Lori

    Wonderful, clear article. Thank you, thank you for writing it. Less hierarchy, more loving churches exist. Took me a while to find one. But they are messy and hard in a different way. I think, in part, because we are a culture of watchers. We lack many skills in participating. They are also very challenging to keep open. We are used to the “show” to draw our money. Virginia, a women does write about this, Kathy Escobar. Wonderful woman and a friend. You might like her writings. Keep it up John. This is a gift.

  • mary

    Moderation would be a good word of the day in many churches. Over the top volume and visual effects, extremes in politics, refusal to accept those with differing opinions (or insistence those opinions should change), sermons and Sunday school lessons that aren’t well researched and barely refer to God, much less include bible passages, people who say we need to come together on Sundays but then arrive late and rush out the door right after service, these are the things that have frustrated me most. Thanks for an article that let’s me know I’m not alone.

  • davegilbertson

    This letter is heartbreaking on many levels. First and foremost because of your hurt, and your frustration; as you are clearly passionate about Jesus and pursuing what a life marked by that love can and should look like. This letter is also frustrating because the way you have chosen to vent those frustrations. It’s not that some if not all of your complaints are unfounded, but rather that you seem to glibly malign The Bride of Christ, while also distancing yourself from her.

    Who are you if you are a pastor, but do not identify with the church?

    This is not to say that the church in the general sense is not in need of sanctification, she is, as am I, because the church is made up of people on journey with Jesus and people like you and like me. The church will not magically get better if all who are passionately following Jesus with their heart, soul, and mind separate themselves from her. There is a better way. The only way the church will get better is by loving sanctification (which sometimes feels very painful) by Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit, and we are the hands and feet of Jesus, so it will come at times not only in ‘outpourings’, but in patient, and long-suffering service. This correction will come in hard talks, anchored by hope, faith, and love. There’s been times that I wished I could leave the church, because of how messy she is, but I cannot in good conscience say that God’s Holy Spirit would be the one leading me away from her.

    I have and likely still do share many of the concerns that you have written about, but I am only in control of my heart and my actions and what I can do to be obedient to what Christ has led me. In short, if I see these frustrations what can I do about that while still being obedient to Christ and living with integrity to myself and God’s word?

    It breaks my heart when I see gifted brothers and sisters feeling that their only option is to leave. I believe there is another way.

    Thank you for sharing your words and your thoughts and I hope my response is received in a spirit of love, and brotherhood, even if it is a touch brokenhearted.

    • CeeBee1953

      Well said, Dave.

    • Kitkat

      Dave, I did leave because of someone who became jealous of the work I was doing. This person continued to spread rumors about me until other people started making accusations of things I didn’t do. No one addressed these other person’s accusations, no one confronted the jealous person, no one addressed the division that was caused by all this. Even though I brought these issues to the pastor and the administration at the church. So for the sake of the congregation I left to minimize the damage that was being done. People started to polarize into the them and us camps. This should not be. Especially in a church, so I left. I was asked by the church council to do the things that I was working on, and yet, this individual couldn’t stand it that I actually finished what was asked of me to do and did it well. I was victimized and the perpetrator was consoled because of her poor self image. I have seen this happen to other gifted people in other congregations. Talented singers, musicians, administrators, etc… all want to utilize their gifts for the benefit of the church only to have to walk away. Why?? Because childish, jealous or territorial individuals feel threatened that someone will get their piece real estate in the church. I tried to go to this individual in love to see what her issue was, and I had insult after insult hurled at me. She gave no rational reason for her behavior and yet nothing was done, no reprimand, no forgiveness, no apology, nothing. Church became a trial for me every Sunday, I no longer enjoyed going because this individual continued her hate towards me. When other people got sucked into this it was more than I could stand. And instead of coming to me to ask what was going on between us, they believed her completely without ever getting my side of the story. And you wonder why gifted people leave the church. There is no church discipline. This person couldn’t forgive me for something I hadn’t done and it was known by others that I didn’t do it. She should have been reprimanded for this, but wasn’t. There are wolves in the congregations but all anyone wants to see is sheep.

  • Cindy

    Whenever I encounter difficulties described in this article, I try to remember that Christians aren’t perfect, but Jesus is. I only disagree with one statement… Don’t demand that the church tolerate you…demand that church love you. That is what we are called to do.

  • Wayne Bones

    Very simple really all the glass churches on TV continually asking for money to build these. Glass and steel pyramids are pushing people away from the local churches…all the fake healing on TV are pushing people away… All the interference in life’s decisions , abortions, gay marriage, assisted death for terminal sufferers is pushing people away…GOD DID NOT MANDATE THE CHURCH TO RUN OUR LIVES! GOD MANDATED THE CHURCH TO TRY AND HELP US TO UNDERSTAND LIFE’S DECISIONS AND KINDNESS…THAT’S ALL!!


  • Ukulelemike

    So what you are saying is, “I am in sin, I want to be in sin, don’t correct me for my sin, let me continue in my sin, and just love me for my sin.” Um, yeah, about that, this sounds nice and all, but it isn’t the Bible’s way, and thus, not the Lord’s way. The same Jesus who told us to love one another, also, in love, called Peter “Satan”. The same Peter who was rebuked of Christ, dressed down Simon the former sorcerer for his immaturity, for trying to purchase something that wasn’t his to have in the first place. Sin is sin, and udgment begins in the house of God. A heart looking to stay in sin will have the feelings you speak of here-its called rebellion. Yes, we love one another, yes, we treat one another kindly, but yes, we also must needs deal with sin, lest that little leaven leaven the whole lump.

    • Abby

      No, What he’s saying is “I’m not perfect, I’m hurt, I’m broken, and I need to be loved and as the church, you’re not doing as you are commanded to “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.”” -Mark 16:15. He’s saying that the church is staying in one place and expecting people to flock to them and then stay. In all reality, we as the church are commanded to go reach people, not expect them to come to us. Show others that we genuinely care about them enough to seek them out and just love them.

    • Patrice

      I don’t think that is what this article is saying at all. Plus, you are assuming the Holy Spirit can’t do the work of convicting of sin so you have to do it? That people have to do it? Even if correction is to be made, a person is more likely to listen to someone who loves them and accepts them. Isn’t that the gentle way the Holy Spirit does it? Isn’t that how Jesus did it? I already get the “holier than thou” vibe from you and that’s exactly what this article is trying to address. I would say take the log out of your own eye first ….

      • Sean

        Patrice, if it was the Holy Spirit was the only one to convict and bring attention to someones unrepentant sin, then why would 1 Cor 5 and 6 talk about putting people out of fellowship and Matthew 18 talks about bringing one who sins to repentance. In order for these to happen it is up to us as the Church to say something first to them to bring them into repentance.

    • TaSaad

      No, what he is saying is the church people forgot that all humans are equal, and church people need to step out of their self-righteousness and become friends, real friends, with the lost and dying world.He is not saying you need to adapt to the ways of world, or to accept the sins of others, but rather to define others as humans not by their sins.

    • plainsaint

      Amen. “User Friendly” churches lack the power of life altering efficacy that only comes through the preaching of the Gospel as contained in the Scriptures. Transformation is necessary for discipleship to exist in reality.

      2 Peter 1:3-11 AMP

      For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue). By means of these He has bestowed on us His precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through them you may escape [by flight] from the moral decay (rottenness and corruption) that is in the world because of covetousness (lust and greed), and become sharers (partakers) of the divine nature. For this very reason, adding your diligence [to the divine promises], employ every effort in exercising your faith to develop virtue (excellence, resolution, Christian energy), and in [exercising] virtue [develop] knowledge (intelligence), And in [exercising] knowledge [develop] self-control, and in [exercising] self-control [develop] steadfastness (patience, endurance), and in [exercising] steadfastness [develop] godliness (piety), And in [exercising] godliness [develop] brotherly affection, and in [exercising] brotherly affection [develop] Christian love. For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). For whoever lacks these qualities is blind, [spiritually] shortsighted, seeing only what is near to him, and has become oblivious [to the fact] that he was cleansed from his old sins. Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall. Thus there will be richly and abundantly provided for you entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

      • aphillips

        I would like to see an article/blog describing all that the church is doing to help those in need. The church I attend, houses and feeds the homeless as part of a rotating shelter. We support several missionaries. We support 16 local families with food, utility payments, school supplies and big ticket items (sofas, refrigerators, washers, dryers, stoves, cars, etc.).We raise money to support a mission that takes care of abandoned street boys in Peru and to help local women and children in need. Yes, we have disagreements. We’re not perfect. And, yes, some judge. But the good outweighs the evil.

        • Sean

          It is not often that we hear of the great things that are happening. It only seems to be people complaining about what they do not like.

      • Just a Christian Dude

        I love some Jesus!

  • Honey

    Very insightful. I would just add this- I visited that duck/ reality tv congregation and saw all kinds of folks welcomed. There are places for the “convinced”, and teaching of plain gospel for the searchers. That church has a very long history of ministering to those in need, whether physically or spiritually. It does not have over the top entertainment, nor use flowery pseudo religious speak. If a reality show brought one curious soul to seek Jesus, it was worth it. There are not ONLY groups out there such as you describe in your article, but I will say these other groups ARE harder to find.
    As well, the hobby store family owners defending their strong beliefs is a battle too “darn small “? How many people need be in a battle for you to consider it “darn big enough”? I do not think the battle of saving babies’ lives is trivial warmongering, but I think that using the term “warmonger” might be considered a “churchy” word to some! I am curious to know if you have left a fellowship for your online ministry, since you speak to the church as though you are not part of it. I am curious about your bloody boots leading you to just online ministry

    • TaSaad

      Is Christianity about defending religious beliefs and dogmas or about showing the lost world the love of Christ? Churches aren’t excluding non Christians from their services, but they aren’t inviting the lost and undeserving out to their Sunday afternoon lunches either. The poor are treated as if they are charity cases, but Christians aren’t really befriending them and treating them as if they are equals. And just because more Christians join the battle for a hobby store than for social inequality does not mean the fight for the hobby store is bigger or more important than the battle over social inequality. You missed the entire point of the article, Honey.

    • Amber Daniels

      wow…you totally missed the point…

    • Brandy Daly

      I’d like to address the Hobby Lobby issue as millennial who has been working to rejoin the church. Have you ever heard the term “pick your battles?” Hobby Lobby decided as a business that it knew better than its employees. The owners of the business believe that certain birth control methods are wrong. However, the owners don’t seem to understand how the birth control works and claimed it caused abortion when it doesn’t. Hobby Lobby said “we know what’s best for you, not your doctor.” That’s where I had a problem. There were tons of Christians backing Chic-Fil-A and Hobby Lobby because of their “religious beliefs” when, at the end of the day, they’re big businesses just looking to make the biggest profits. Instead of focusing on increasing the profit margins of these businesses, why not focus on actual problems? I don’t really care about the religious beliefs of the owners of businesses I shop at. I have too many problems of my own. My friends have their problems. My family has another set.
      I work 2 jobs to pay bills, and still barely make it. I graduated from college to make $12 an hour. The utilities are on, but barely. My friend has to beg for help to feed her child. Another lost her child at 20 weeks because they couldn’t afford prenatal care. We’re tired. We need help that’s not coming. It’s not coming because poverty is our fault. We’re told that if we actually cared or worked, we would be able to buy a car or house or afford to have children. I’ve been at one job for almost 5 years and make $12 an hour. The other pays minimum. My fiance just got promoted and makes $9 an hour. We’re told that we’re not working hard enough. That we’re undeserving. We’re lazy. We’re entitled. We just want what you had. We want the “American Dream”. We want a full time job that pays a living wage. We don’t want to have to go to work with the flu, praying not to get sent home sick because a lost day of work means we won’t eat or a bill won’t be paid. We want to be able to buy a house or start a family. We were told if you go to school, get good grades, and get your degree, and you, too, can have the house and the family and the retirement plan. But that’s not how things work anymore.
      We think differently. We’re more accepting. We have tattoos or piercings and some of us have kids out of wedlock. It’s hard to go to church when you work Sundays. It’s even harder when you finally do make it and you feel the people judging you. You get the stares and the concerned looks because your dress clothes aren’t new or you’re there with a baby, but not the father. My fiance and I aren’t the same color, and we’ve gotten that disapproving look at church.
      Basically, pick your battles. So much money was thrown into those businesses that could have been spent to, you know, actually help people. There’s a church near me with this huge set of crosses out front. I mean, really massive. You can see them from miles away. They light them at night. Since they went up, I can’t see the stars anymore. Every time I see them, I think about how many people they could feed. How many houses they could build. How many kids wouldn’t have to go hungry. Such a waste of money that could have been better spent actually making a difference.

  • Lisa Martinez

    Thank you.

  • D Sims

    “I’ve been waiting for you to step in with this whole supposedly relentless, audacious “love of Jesus” thing I hear so much about, and make it real.”

    I imagine I will be like many on here and say that your thoughts for the most part are very good and true to life in many ways. No doubt you are trying to shake the foundation with the way you write your article but as I am reading it I am asking myself if you yourself are doing what you are wanting the Church to do?
    Are you getting your hands dirty as you describe in this wonderfully written article?

    In our ministry we work in the inner city community every week and have for over a decade and some of what you say is just is not reality in the front line trenches. Oh it sounds good and paints a pretty good picture of a Jesus running around and being relevant with the down and outers, but trust me there is much more to making disciples among the disenfranchised than giving audacious love of Jesus. Making disciples is a long, hard and messy job and most Christians from the young to the old are not ready to take that on in their busy life pursuing the American Dream.

    Finally I would like to remind all of us that the love of Jesus is not just putting up with peoples bad habits and addictions and being satisfied with where they are at for the rest of their lives. The whole truth is God shows His love in His discipline just as much as He shows His love in meeting our daily needs.

    God is seeking growing, maturing men and women who are in the fruit bearing business, all to make Him look good. We as disciple makers must with the Fathers help offer grace, mercy and forbearance with the goal of being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Rightly dividing the whole of truth and then living it out ourselves for others to imitate.

    • disgusted

      amen. I just left a really sad situation, so tired of the bell ringing, bible taking, choir singing disciples we are raising up. Just cant stay another day! i feel I’ve finally lost the battle of an honest “Christian” or follower of Christ! We are rejoicing in our church b/c we just got rid of the “EXPENSIVE” copier.

    • Brian Baldowski

      This article is not directed at everyone who is a Christian or runs a ministry. Some people show the love and charity he speaks about daily. But not all, and I would argue a majority do not. It is these people he is addressing. Also, I don’t know much about your ministry, but too often I have seen ministries that do help the down and out but don’t embrace them. I in no way suggest your ministry is one of those. I would ask though, how much fellowship do you have with the people in your ministry outside the times you have services or outside the confines of the building you use? Have you become their friends? Have you brought them to your home or only ever gone to their home? What do you do with them outside the ministry you run? If you have embraced them as friends and family then you are doing the work correctly. However, if you are only going into the area when the facility you run is open and never see them outside the context of the ministry, then I would suggest you rethink they way you do your ministry.

      • D Sims

        No doubt Brian there are people like you describe that will go and volunteer at a food pantry for a day then consider themselves working among the poor. Most everyone locally I know that are doing any kind of ministry their hearts are in it. We cannot be everything to everyone. Even the Apostles said they have to devote themselves to prayer and the Word and need to assign men that are full of the Spirit to work among the widows.
        Jesus Himself said I have to go or else the work of the Father will not be accomplished in the earth as He purposed. It takes all of us. The real problem is only about 20% of the body of Christ is doing 80% of the work. The rest are too busy pursuing the American Dream to be bothered too much with living out Life in Christ. As Keith Green used to sing, they are asleep in the Light.
        As far as this blogger John, I went and read much more of what he has written and I have discovered he is very much in the left ditch as far as his opinions. This is typical human nature, it is very hard for all of us to stay in the middle of that narrow road. We easily end up in the right or left ditch in out thinking. It truly takes a bankrupt heart, discarding our rights and our opinions to allow the Spirit to teach us to righty dividing the truth.

        • Sean

          I would like to mention this about your comment, that 80 percent that is out pursuing that American Dream. They are the many that financially support the people that are doing the 20 percent. If it were not for them we would not have the money to fund these missions and Church Plants.

          • D Sims

            In our Inner City Ministry, actually it is the middle class poor that give the most into the work of Christ among the homeless and disenfranchised per capita. I also think the national statistics on giving confirm this. The wealthy do give and we should be thankful for any and all that anyone gives.
            We still life in a nation where the standard of living is way more than a person really needs. The old slogan is very true, the more we make the more we spend. In Kingdom practice, when God blesses you with more, it is not to increase your standard of living, but rather to increase your standard of giving.

          • Sean

            But we also need to remember, most of the people in this Country are not Saved.

          • D Sims

            Sean, when I was talking about 80/20 breakdown it was in the body of Christ. So many that go by the name of Christian in the western world are spending the majority of their time and money on living for themselves, thus the comment about the American Dream. The rest of the people are just doing what comes natural, it is the Christians that should know better.

  • Phillip Pennington

    Wow. Makes me think of Martin Luther nailing his letter to the church door at midnight. Love this letter. It is at the heart of many believers who admit our struggles and just want to know and be known. Thank you

    • Eric

      Except when Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the door at Wittenberg, he was challenging sin and calling the church to holiness and biblical worship. This is definitely not that.

      • Nan Roberts

        I think this is that.

        • Christmas Joy

          I think this is that…
          You can’t get away with that! 🙂 You need to explain your reasoning. And that would include how it relates to Luther’s challenge to the “church of his day”.

          • Nan Roberts

            I can’t get away with that? What? No, I don’t have to explain my reasoning, or how it relates to Luther’s challenge to the church of his day. I don’t have to do anything.

  • Tracey

    I only know Christians who are like Jesus…very non-judge mental individuals and very welcoming. It’s sad that you do not. Especially bc you’re a pastor. How sad. Unfortunately, reading what you wrote, I got a sense that you are the center of your world and that your needs are not being met are the priority in your life. My mom always made sure we knew our place. It’s not about me or you, John. And it comes across pretty selfish when you write. Be the change you want to see.

    • Sean

      Hmmm. Seems rather…judgmental.

    • Patrice

      Your response is Exhibit A to “why this article is needed….”

  • Paul Munafo

    Oh My Goodness The Church is not perfect. There are plenty of bad restaurants but i still eat out. I don’t throw them all under the bus, because there are plenty of good ones. When i was saved I was called into the church (not into ministry) and that’s were i have been for the past 34 years. I have missed maybe 15 Sundays in all that time and none of the churches I attended were perfect, nor were the people, nor was the leadership, and nor was the doctrine for that matter. I went called by God into the fellowship of the saints (the imperfect saints mind you) as are all believers who are Born Again in Christ. It’s not about me, its about the call and the will of God for my life.. God saved my soul and delivered me. No church needed to walk the tightrope of my feelings for me to stay. Sure i got hurt and offended and tired, but i was there for the Lord, and I’m in for the haul. If you go to Church for any other reason than Him it’s only a matter of time…you’ll be gone. I’ve seen it. You got problems or issues? Get in a pew faithfully week after week and become a disciple, because that’s what the Great Commission is. That’s the job of the Church to make disciples. Put on your big boy boots and get to it. God saved your soul! You don’t go for fellowship, all though fellowship plays an important part, you don’t go for the worship, although worship is important, you don’t go to be healed although in time you will be.and you don’t go for what the church can do for you, although the church is there to help many times. You go for the Lord, and to be trained as His disciple. If you go for any other reason, when it doesn’t happen you will be disillusioned and leave. When you make Jesus lord that means He makes the rules. If you don’t follow Him how can you say he is Lord? If you leave His Church altogether how can you say he is Lord?

    • Brian Baldowski

      I partly agree with you, but becoming his disciples is not the only reason to go to church. The Bible does direct us to help our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to stay strong. The church is not a Horatio Alger story. You need help and support to stay in fellowship with the Lord. We all do. I do agree that if we have our feelings hurt we shouldn’t just leave the church, I have had my share of hurt feelings and they did sting. I didn’t leave the church then. I left when I saw the hypocrisy of a church who professed to love everyone ostracize a friend because she had “sinned” in their eyes. Just because we are saved doesn’t mean we don’t sin anymore. We need just as much forgiveness then as before we were saved. I also, saw a pastor that was willing to ask his parishioners to do something he considered wrong just to help himself. If you as the pastor think it is wrong then it is wrong for everyone in the church. I don’t believe that a pastor is a perfect human. They sin as much as anyone else, but they should also not ask a member of their church to do something they consider morally wrong. I can point to many other examples that I hear on the news and from friends.

    • nonebut Jesus VIew

      Thank you! Although this article has truths in general I see it shared on social media outlets by Church haters, by those who never attend church at all, but dog it every chance they get and drool over articles like this that further their cause of church bashing.

      • Paul Munafo

        Exactly. With all its faults, I Love the Church….so does Jesus

      • Doug Rudder

        Let’s keep the dogs out of it.If we were as faithful as dogs our problems would be no more

  • iamredeemed

    Ok I will “own” my 47 years as a believer, and I am sure I qualify as one of the people who can’t relate well to people outside the church culture..the problem is…I want to. I can’t seem to bridge the gap between what is acceptance and love for those who are living worldly lifestyles without feeling like I am condoning their choices to disobey God’s Word. I truly recognize that they are spiritually blind and do not see the need for personal holiness. But they shutdown the conversations by their favorite mantra “Don’t judge me”. Jesus does love all of us sinners and did go out to the people…but He also loved them enough to confront their sin and tell them the Truth…that they need a Savior.

    • TaSaad

      If you really want to relate to those outside of the church, start by becoming aware of your own self-righteousness, and humble yourself just a tiny bit. Start by knowing the only thing that separates you from those outside of the church is the redemption of Christ, other than that you are just the same as any other sinner. Come down from your pedestal, then maybe you can follow the in the direction of Christ.

    • Godsgrace

      I was praying for some perspective on this just today. How to truly love without saying that sin is right. First of all, I noticed that although Christ did call out sin while on earth, He never even broached the topic of someone’s sin until He SHOWED them unconditional love (healing, protecting, etc). Because love is an action, not just a little saying to add on to the end of a sentence. And it wasn’t just that His love was an action, He didn’t bring up their sin until THEY knew that He unconditionally loved them. Because it matters whether or not the person actually feels loved. It then occured to me that if every time my husband said he loved me, he ended the sentence with “but I don’t agree with you doing…”, I would never feel very loved. Can you imagine if the only time we were told we were loved was “I love you, but…”. If that’s not a very good way to show love in a marriage, I don’t think it’s a very good way to show it to anyone else. So I think the balance is that love always has to come first, and once a person realizes how precious they are and that they are loved unconditionally by the King, they will be willing to give their sinful choices over to someone who they trust because there is safety in love. I know the more I realize His love for me, the more I trust all those dark parts of my life with Him! That was a great question, iamredeemed! 🙂

    • Sherry Wilmoth

      I believe most professed Christians don’t know how but “want to.” I worked with homeless and destitute people and I learned “how to.” I learned to put aside my own biases and prejudices and judgments that I had been taught since I was a baby and truly love people without judgment. Just remember – God is the judge. There is not one place in the Bible that says you are. God will judge the sin – you need to learn to love. When you do this – people will come to you because they see God in you through your love. “And they will know you are Christians by your love – by your love – and they’ll know you are Christians by your love!”

  • Wallflower William

    “People don’t need to be dazzled with big, churchy words and about eschatological frameworks…..” Eschatological? That word is the Jesus of big, churchy words. Give me a break John.

  • Kitkat

    I just left my church of 4 years. I hated to leave it, because they are very progressive and the pastor was really great. But someone at the church became jealous of the work I was doing and started to spread rumors about me. This was a supposed friend. I would go to church and this person would do nasty little things to make my life miserable. No one confronted her about her behavior. Others had witnessed her behavior, and yet she was not held accountable for it. She was asked her side of the story and she lied. We tried a meeting and she just called me names and couldn’t give a rational reason for her behavior towards me. In the end I decided it was best that I leave as she was causing division because of it. What should be done in an instance like this. I felt if I couldn’t be forgiven for something I didn’t do, how could I be forgiven if I did do something. I loved the article, but church discipline should also be addressed. I know of people who have been horribly wronged in a church, and yet because of money, bias or influence, the leadership turns a blind eye while other church members are victimized. This is another reason people leave the church.

  • Valerie Chrisitan

    Valerie Christian The Church is not perfect. The people are not that make up all churches. I find the article interesting
    The author writes about churches being judgmental when clearly he is being that way. Sounds like a Divorce to me.
    Instead of trying to make a difference or work things out with the church let’s just quit. I do agree with one comment a reader made. There is a misconception that Worship is about Us, Me, You.
    When in fact Worship is about Christ. Through our Worship we receive the Joy of being in Christ presence and offering ourselves to Him.
    Thankful our Salvation does not depend on a church, it’s critic’s or supporters.
    Thanks be to God!

  • Valerie Chrisitan

    Valerie Christian The Church is not perfect. There is a misconception that Worship is about Us, Me, You.
    When in fact Worship is about Christ. Through our Worship we receive the Joy of being in Christ presence and offering ourselves to Him.
    Thankful our Salvation does not depend on a church, it’s critic’s or supporters.
    Thanks be to God!

  • Steve Russell

    If I could go back and preach at my last church, I think I’d just read this article

  • Pingback: Why people are really leaving church | Ms. Pastor()

  • EthanRogati

    You’re a pastor and you’re talking about the church as if you were outside it?

  • Pingback: Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are Really Leaving You – ChurchPlants | heftafarm()

  • ilona maki

    Dumb ass. Who are these church plants, anyhow? I have a hard enough time being accepted by the non church plants.

    If Jesus told the folks in the gospels to go everywhere and all around, to seek folks,
    I just don’t understand what this whole post is about.

    Everything that Paul wrote about in the NT was about “church plants.” There were no standing churches at that time. So….what’s the problem, or, origin of the difficulties of ‘church plants’ these days? It’s how the early church started….

    • CeeBee1953

      Was your expletive really necessary?

      • ilona maki

        Oops! Prob not. Some of us run around w/a more liberal crowd. 🙂

      • ilona maki

        Oops. Prob not. Sometimes run around w/a more liberal crowd than others! 🙂

  • Toni

    A very poignant and interesting article. I agree with most of its points, but I think you’re missing a couple.

    1. Hypocrisy and Judgmentalism.

    In continuing to enforce the ‘anti-sin’, and most especially ‘anti-gay’ philosophies you directly contradict the teachings of Jesus and many verses in the NT that direct Christians to ignore the Jewish Laws listed in the OT – such as Eph.2:15, Gal.2:14, Gal.5:3, and most especially Gal.5:3,4 and Gal.5:14.

    The true Christ Spirit produces fruits “against which there is no law” (Gal.5:22,23). Moreover, “he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery’, ‘Do not murder’, ‘Do not steal’, ‘Do not covet’, and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law (Rom.13:8-10)”. “The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself'” (Gal.5:13).

    2. Cherry-picking of scripture to support that hypocrisy and judgmentalism.

    A Fundamentalist who claims that others must adhere to even one regulation stated in Mosaic Law is bound by the whole of Mosaic Law: “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised (a stipulation of one of the Mosaic laws) that he is a debtor to do the whole law” (Gal.5:3). Someone cannot just choose to adhere to one (or some) law and not adhere strictly to all the others, or this would literally demonstrate Pharisaical hypocrisy.

    The very question of whether Christians were to follow Mosaic Law or not, came up in the first century of Christianity among those with a deeply ingrained cultural tendency towards the written decrees of Moses. The so-named Jerusalem Council decided, after discussion, that because non-Jews were following the Lord Jesus Christ, they should be free from following Mosaic Law, and moreover, so should Jews.

    A lot of these things come down to a simple conclusion that many ex-church goers come to – most especially if they truly study the Bible and Christ’s teachings.

    You (the Church) may try your best to follow Jesus, but you are falling very, very short of that goal. It’s going to happen, as we are all human and cannot possibly reach the perfection and sinlessness of the Son of God. But you could try an awful lot harder.

    You (again, the Church) are NOT Jesus, you are NOT God, and you have no right to judge others of their sins, regardless of how bad you think that sin is. YOUR JOB is to unconditionally love all your fellow sinners and not hold them up to an unreachable standard. LOVE them, no matter what, and support them no matter what. That was the truth of Jesus’ teaching and until the Churches reflect that in their reality, beliefs and behaviors, people will continue to leave.

    The Church needs to reflect the unconditional love of Christ and God, but it doesn’t.

    That is why it is failing.

    • Delwyn Campbell

      Really? You think that Jesus came to destroy the Law? When you “love your neighbor as yourself,” you don’t steal from them, you don’t lie to them, you honor your parents. The Law of God is holy, just and good. Jesus said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” “Why do you call Me, “Lord, Lord,” but don’t do what I say?” We have been given one directive – “Preach the Gospel to every creature – Make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded.” The Lord is the Righteous Judge, and He has made us to be partakers of His divine nature. We know the difference between holy and unholy, between clean and unclean, by His holy Spirit who lives within us. We are not called to be like the World. We are called to declare God’s Word to the world, so that those who hear and repent would come out from among them and be separate. Most of the world will not hear, because they WILL NOT HEAR, not because they don’t understand. Don’t be deceived, what a man sows, is what he reaps. Those who sow to their flesh, seeking to fulfill the desires of the flesh and of the mind, will reap corruption. Jesus said it, and He doesn’t lie. Repent and believe the Gospel.

      • Toni

        I have already “Repented and believe the Gospel” long ago, and it is highly presumptuous and judgmental of you to automatically assume that I have not.

        If you care to understand the basis of my faith and why I posted the things that I did, please read this:

        If you don’t care to understand, and simply wish to continue raving and judging someone who has a different interpretation and belief of the message of Christ, then you are a major part of the reason why people are leaving the Church in droves.

        Christ’s message was of God’s unconditional love, not God’s conditional judgments. That’s exactly what he criticized the Pharisees for 2000+ years ago. Read Matthew 23 in its entirety and perhaps you will understand more closely what is happening to the Christian Church (again), for what the Church is suffering from is modern-day Pharasaic hypocrisy.

        • Delwyn Campbell

          Dear Toni,
          Repentance is a daily thing, not something that we’ve done “a long time ago.” Jesus and the Apostles preached “Repent and believe the Gospel.” That Gospel was not “God loves you unconditionally,” although He does love us with an everlasting love. Rather, it was that God has, for Christ’s sake, forgive you all of your sins.
          The message, “God loves you and had a wonderful plan for your life,” as nice as it sounds, never fell from the lips of either Jesus or the Apostles, neither was it spoken by the Apostolic Fathers. It is a modern invention, and had ushered in with it all manner of humanistic error. The Reformation was fought over the issue of Justification, not the love of God. The question that each man has to answer is not, “Does God love me?” It is, “How will a man be justified before God?”
          May I suggest that you read Article IV of the Augsburg Confession and its Defense, for a clearer understanding of this issue. It is the issue upon which the Church stands or falls.

          • Toni

            That is your belief and interpretation. Mine differs, as do many others. As a person, I do have to justify myself before God, although I also know that he loves me unconditionally and knows the truth of my heart, mind, and soul. I understand and realize that. However, as the Bible also clearly teaches, I do NOT have to justify myself before any man or woman. Continuing to tell me that I need to repent, even though you know absolutely nothing about me, tells me that you are simply being presumptuous and judgmental.

            I pray and ask forgiveness for my sins every day, but in all honesty, since I love God with all my heart and I do no harm to, and show love to my fellow man/woman, I don’t end up the day with a lot of sins to ask forgiveness for.

          • Delwyn Campbell

            Good, although, even when I am unaware of sins, that does not justify me, for I am so aware of the sin in my members. Thus my daily Confession is not simply of sins, but of sin itself. I do not know your background, but from what you have said, would I be wrong in guessing that you have not been exposed very much to the Small Catechism, written by Dr. Martin Luther? It is available online at It might give you a perspective that you don’t currently express.

        • Katya Cohen

          The Pharisees were less hypocritical than the modern church. Heck NOT ONCE did Yeshua/Jesus EVER give a ruling on a matter that was NOT inside the bounds of Pharisaic Judaism.
          He wasn’t a Phraisee, but He affirmed their authority over the Jewish believers (Matthew 23:3), and rebuked ONLY the few that were hypocritical with their actions, but NOT ALL OF THEM. There were THOUSANDS OF THEM. They were the majority of the religious people the first century.

          It is simple-minded and slanderous to call them ALL hypocrites. It’s a lie and an anti-semitic slander from the days of Constantine- who corrupted Messianic/Christian faith in the early 300’s AD. (Note 321AD “sunday” change and 325AD “Easter” change- and WHY he ruled that way- bigotry was a HUGE part of it).

    • Delwyn Campbell

      By the way, the only way that the Church could be “failing” is if Jesus were a liar. He said “Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” If the Church is failing, you might as well “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we perish.” The only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved is the name of Jesus, and the only thing that He has promised to be with is His Church. So if you leave, you lose.

      • Toni

        I see your point, but you’re missing another way that the Church could be failing. When the leaders of the Church have so perverted and twisted the Bible that it no longer follows the teachings and mission of Christ, people will leave because they can clearly see the hypocrisy in such a message. Jesus came to teach us that God was about unconditional love, and not the angry, vengeful God that the OT portrays. When the Church refuses to show and follow that love, people will leave.

    • Delwyn Campbell

      Further, you condemn the Church for not reflecting the unconditional love of Christ and God, right after you upbraid the Church for judging sin, saying that we are not Jesus, and we are not God.
      You err on both sides here, we are commanded to “exhort, reprove, and rebuke with all patience” by the Apostle Paul, who wrote under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit. We are commanded to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather, expose them.
      Love takes no pleasure in iniquity, but it delights in the Law of the Lord, and in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are to be imitators of Christ, as dear children. When you confess your sins, your pastor will, in love, exercise the the office of the keys of the Kingdom, declaring to you that God, for Christ’s sake, has forgiven you. If, by contrast, you love sin rather than God, he will proclaim the Law of God in all its severity, so that you would turn and repent. That is his charge concerning the congregation that he has been called to serve in Word and Sacrament. This is elementary stuff, and, since you feel qualified to correct pastors, surely you know these things, right? Why then do you resist the Holy Spirit as He works through Word and Sacrament to stregthen you in the faith? Why would you turn away from the bride of Christ, whom his has placed in the earth, to bring to you these gifts of grace, thus resisting the Spirit of grace?

      • Toni

        I didn’t “condemn” the Church, I simply said these are some of the main reasons people are leaving. If you can’t see the hypocrisy and Pharasaic legalism, then you are part of the problem. I’m obviously beating my head against a dogmatic wall here and I won’t continue this conversation. Have a good day.

    • Katya Cohen

      NONE of those say He came so we could IGNORE the “Jewish laws”. First of all they are G-d’s laws, NOT the “Jewish” laws. Second HE HIMSELF says He will REJECT the lawless… He says He did NOT come to abolish the law. Paul says REPEATEDLY in Romans “we do not abolish the law, we uphold it”.
      1 John says “Sin is violation of the law” and those that claim to know Him but keep sinning are liars.

      Also, Yeshua, Jesus, IS THE TORAH… Note Romans 10:5-9, Paul is paraphrasing Deut 30 ABOUT TORAH- every “it” where Paul adds “that is to say Christ”- “IT” is TORAH. He is saying plainly CHRIST IS THE TORAH- which is what John 1 opens saying. The word became flesh.

      Also, the New Covenant, Jer 31:31-14 (cited in Hebrews) is FOUNDED ON G-d writing “the Torah in your heart”. The word “law” in English there is TORAH in Hebrew.

      So, no the law is NOT done away with. Heaven forbid we teach messiah did away with HaShem’s word! That is BLASPHEMY (Deut 13- the false prophet chapter).

      ALL of G-d’s word is valid and HE defines sin.

      Yes, the church SHOULD oppose it- but in love, not malice and hatefulness. HOW it’s opposed has been wrong, but it’s NEVER been wrong to oppose it. In fact, the church embracing sin and bringing in sin as “excusable” and “permitted under christ” is WHY the church is dying. The church is being more like the world than changing the world to be more Christ-like (who, btw, LIVED THE TORAH PERFECTLY- be a disciple, learn and live like HE did, right- it IS His last command- “go forth and make disciples of all nations”.).

  • Roxie Powell

    I skimmed through your post and from what I read, I agree. The only thing I have to say is that we say ‘church’ and mean human beings. All churches are made up of flesh, there will be mistakes made and feelings hurt. God’s word is no longer important to the world because the world has become self sufficient, selfish and inverted. Its not the churches fault, its humans fault. NOT THE CHURCH. God made the church, humans make the attendance. Years ago when the churches/building were full, there were no cell phones, internet, drugs, and extra caricular activities to distract us. There was also a greater need for social skills, human interaction, now we, humans have something called technology. Not stating its bad, just pessimistic about the side affects its creating.

  • Chris Neal

    If you simply: Love God and Love People… Everything else is just a tool to minimise distractions.

  • Thomas Harvey

    Atheists and agnostics read the Bible and cannot in all honesty believe it. When the first story talks abou tlight preceding the sun and water separated from the sky then goes on to bring in a talking serpent as a lead character to place women into subservience, you’ve alienated half your audience before the next chapter. Get rid of the fiction, turn it into a community of social activism for good instead of blame. Ignoring the elephant of Stone age stories wrapped with hatred, violence and misogyny not to metion bigotry and hypocrisy leaves people with a really jaundiced opinion against the church thingy.

  • Monty Hughes

    Yes, many are tired of ‘churchianity’. And the younger generation (18-to-35) are more doers. They want to see action more than a lesson. In my own labors of love (as well as in my research) I see those who “have a belief” primarily avoid churches … and 72% evidently believe churches have little influence on real/major issues in America (Pew Poll).

  • debrockman

    I understand your point, but the church that stops telling people that their pain is coming from their sin is no longer doing its flock a service. Is your family and your life broken because you have cheated, lied, used drugs, been lazy? Is your life a shambles because you choose sin over responsibility? God’s laws are modeled for us based on the laws of nature. We suffer when we choose selfishly. When we choose to degrade our souls we rot. And the church, more often than not these days,
    avoids telling people that there are wrong choices…..and that those choices will bring suffering. We feed first, and we ease suffering. But then we show the injured the source of the suffering….and help them become well. Because God loves us. He wants us to prosper. But our sin keeps us in our misery.

  • Brian Wyant

    Excellent article John I have seen this and at times may have even been a part of it in some ways but even when I have been I knew it didn’t seem or feel right. So I try my best now to do my small part of reaching people where they are and listen and love and as I feel the Holy spirit urge me to speak mentor or guide. Not with an agenda other than to share my hope faith and love for a redeeming transforming merciful God. Love your writings and thoughts John
    church without walls is really Church no band no building no extravagant coffee shops needed.

  • Jonathan Smoak

    I like what you have to say and the words you use to say it although I think it does not go to the fundamental issue. Myself and many I know have left the corporate structure, the American religious club, but that has no baring on our relationship to Jesus. Maybe we ought to be living a life of love and not so worried about what we call “church”.

  • Mike

    You nailed it John. Several years ago I came up with the term “consumer christians.” It was original to me at the time but I’ve since heard it used by others. We’ve turned church into a competative market. Our culture has shaped us rather than the other way around. Like chosing a hotel, new car, restaurant, retail outlet or any other worldly product consumer christians take the “what’s in it for me” attitude. Rather than coming to church asking how they can help they are content to sit and allow others to carry the heavy end of things. We need to get back to communing with God and our fellow believers instead.

  • Tj Scheid

    Dear John Pavlovitz, if that’s the way you feel, brother, then I will pray for you and the people you represent. I would encourage you to watch this video about Christian persecution. I think it is another perspective on the western church. I’ll pray that it reaches you.

  • Elavon

    Why not go to the Church that was established on the Day of Pentecost. In Acts, Chapter 2; the Bible tells you to believe, repent and be baptized, and Christ adds you to the Church. In Ephesians, it is stated that there is one Lord, one Faith, and ONE BODY; the body being the Church. We must accepts God’s word. The five items of worship are hearing the word; singing, partaking of the Lord’s Supper, giving of our means and praying. Thank you!!!

  • oldpuppydog

    Some churches are good some are not.Kinda like anything in life. As long as people are involved some will do the right thing some won’t. Remember church is a place were people meet. So saying church you need to do this for me , is not going to happen. If you know what you want start meeting in your home with like minded people. You don’t need a church for GOD to show up. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

  • Nan Roberts

    Oh, thank you for this. I can add that I’m not acceptable when severely depressed, rude, mean and obnoxious. I’m only eligible for unconditional love when I’m nice. If I get rude or pushy or critical, then I get “grace.” Which I figured out must be what I thought was being pretty much completely ignored for several years. Nobody will come after me persistently when I’m like that to find out what’s wrong, or to listen or even to give some hugs. Nope. If I’m rude and blaming then it’s my fault I’m rejected. Yet Jesus never leaves me, even when I’m so mad I kick him in the shins I’m so mad at him.
    Oh, and I can’t point out any of these things because I’m not supposed to judge.

  • Excellent article, especially #1. Why are we so terrified of reading the Bible aloud, praying, or just SILENCE? Let alone regular celebration of the Lord’s Supper with sufficient time to pray beforehand.

  • songbird

    Awe, what an ugly and impatient way to talk about the Body of Christ. We are the best He has to work with at this point. We, too, must mature through our own walk of painful growth through trials and errors into the full stature of Christ. With all her warts, where would the world be without the Church? God Himself, must be the author of what ever we do that truly affects the world for Him? Have some faith – He knows exactly what He’s doing, and He IS RIGHT ON TIME! “For “HE”, Who began the good work in us, “WILL” complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6) Most people serving in those highly criticized light shows, coffee bars, etc, are at least showing up and trying to do what they believe might draw people to God… Only He knows their hearts and motives? I have often heard it said – we’re the only army that shoots its own wounded. That is what I hear in this blog. Scolding and guilting the Church (especially by a not-so-new-believer-blogger) coddles and validates a victim mentality in the world and is such a bad witness…spelling division to those outside the covenant. “Guilt sermons TO the Church, don’t work anymore than “guilt sermons FROM the Church, to the lost. It just puts pressure on church leadership to come up with another “new thing” to try and attract people to God. The answer is indeed “LOVE”… But we cannot love those outside the church – which is being purposed here, until we first LOVE ONE ANOTHER. A letter like this DOES NOT BUILD UP, EDIFY, OR UNIFY! NOTHING, but the authentic, supernatural power of the Holy Spirit and LOVE for ONE ANOTHER (John 13:35) will ever reconcile a lost world to the Father. I totally believe we need a program of “attraction, rather than “promotion…but a love letter – recognizing all the beautiful attributes of the Body of Jesus (and there are MANY) might attract more than a scathing letter of rebuke, don’t you think? I want to encourage us all to reread the passage in Ephesians 4:2-16. Verse 13 speaks of the UNITY of the faith among “believers”. Jesus prayed, in John 17:21, that we would love one another (believer to believer before we try and love the lost) “I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one…as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. and may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me”. NLT. Maybe another reason they are “leaving”, is that a house divided cannot stand?

  • Many years ago a group called Steely Dan sang something very appropriate and nearly prophetic. They sang “Any world that i’m welcome to – is better than the one that I come from.” I have thought that they were sorts of postmodern prophets writing this back in the 1970’s. The prophets of today are U2 who sing on their new album “Hope is where the door is – when the Church is where the war is.” Church, we need to hear the voices of those outside (and inside) looking for hope. Do we really think (as this post says) that they are just in love with being hopeless? Do we know and believe that “hope” is one of the things the Bible says is a motivating factor for those outside? Check it out – it is in 1 Peter 3:15. The things said in this post were “stuff that needs to be said!” Thanks to John P.

  • Mike

    Enjoyed the article but not sure if a pastor can provide the best experience. It’d be like the CEO of Sony writing about why people don’t like Sony. As a layman, my problem is that many in the clergy believe they are the only ones who knows what’s right and wrong with the church. They speculate about what we, the laity, believe or think. For me, I go to church in order to find Christians I can disciple because they aren’t getting it from the pulpit. You said churches speak in language people can’t understand, my experience is the exact opposite. They try to be so “relevant” that the Bible becomes a commentary on the pastor’s beliefs rather than the basis for what all Christians should believe. They are so afraid of offensive verses that they share only what others would accept. I.e., your comments about love. How about preaching about how Jesus loved His disciples through rebuke? (Rev 3.19,20).

  • malachi

    To be completely honest. In my opinion often times people do not reap the benefits that they believe their supposed to find in the church because they dont commit theirselves and honestly get involved in the church. I myself have felt many ways mentioned in this article at ppints in my past. The thing that helped me the most was trying to get involved and be serious about church despite my opinions about how service was done. I found out that the love was actually there and that when you really get to know those who labor among you that you see their struggles and you find out that there not to much different from you and you do belong!

    • Christmas Joy

      True Dat

  • Godbassist

    TRUE Worship ushers in the presence of God, it do not entertain.

  • tonyc0101

    DANG this is a good article!!

  • Ron Doub

    Very good points, yet like most things this side of glory, incomplete. The crowds left Jesus in his earthly ministry. (John 6:26-70) And they will leave Him in His ministry as the Body of Christ.

  • Laticia Evans Little

    I absolute love this article! I’ve been screaming some of the very same things for years now. I have continually found it hard to be in ministry when we can’t live in our truth in our church organizations. Yes, Jesus loved prostitutes, liars, SINNERS and would come to the defense of anyone that stood against them. Why aren’t all of us (not some of us) who call ourselves disciples following after His teachings? At least once a week I think about leaving my post at my church to start a gathering just for people who want to know Christ….the Love of God. No dogma, doctrine, established theology or even (God forbid) offerings; just encouragement to develop a relationship with the Almighty!

  • Mary Anderson


  • Pam Rasch

    Gave up my need for approval from “the church” and turned to the only true church on Earth, that is to say Nature, created by God perfectly, and from whom all the lessons I need are written on the sky, sun, moon, leaves, even the dirt. Gave up trying to understand the ramblings of imperfect students who never really understood what Jesus was teaching and spread their prejudices and preconceptions, later called “gospel”. Only study the “red words”, they are the only ones I need. Studied and integrated the Tao, which taught me to release my attachments to ridiculous personifications of God, to me the ultimate sin of the “the church”. Finally realised “the church” as the geopolitical force of sickness and death that it is. I mean, if you understand the workings of the human brain and its tendency towards heuristics, the shortcut to “heh, that guy died on the cross for me, so I don’t really have to change myself at all” is not even a big stretch. John, I have felt your pain. Take Jesus into the forest with you and you won’t be in pain anymore. Take others with you and you will know the true measure his power. Peace be with you brother.

  • Mary

    This is awesome. Hoping to connect in a real way with this pastor.

  • Nick de Vries

    The answer is PRAYER, plain and simple, faith filled or even desperate PRAYER. Our little church in Cairns has lost many teens but after a year of dedicated prayer by a faithful few, suddenly we saw increase! WooHoo! To God be the glory!!!

  • Sam Sluss

    Maybe it’s time that we the body of Christ humble ourself and seek God till His presence fills the place and then we will see people saved, healed or what ever their need may be. And we will have enough of His spirit in us they will want to stay.

  • Margaret Stott

    I want to respond to this, but I don’t really know where to start. I’m a church goer, have been since I was in my mother’s womb. But my relationship with Jesus is my own. A relationship that has had its ups and downs as any real relationship will have. I think what bothers me is the part where you say we don’t go outside our building. Spoken like a pastor. I may come to the building on Sunday, but Monday through Saturday I DO go outside the building. Pastors need to get it that those of us who aren’t in “The Ministry” are out there doing, well, ministry. We go to jobs where our co-workers cuss and tell lewd stories and sneer and malign us as we try be tolerant of “where they are.” We show love and mercy. We try to engage these people in relationship. Most of the time it doesn’t do any good, but every once in a while you make a statement that hits a chord in someone’s heart and the next time, they listen a little more intently and with less eye-rolling. I go to a pretty good church that actually does get outside the building–at least once a quarter we do. We have a thing called “Big Life Sunday” wherein we go out on a Sunday morning to retirement homes, and hospitals, and we minister to the poor by fixing their front porch steps or a broken window. But the rest of the time, I sit in the pew and listen to a pastor tell me I’m not doing enough because I like to come to church and enjoy the company of my brothers and sisters and the presence of our great and awesome God, on Sunday–where cussing doesn’t usually happen. No cussing, it’s nice for a change.

  • Trucker

    The vast majority of the followers of god spend the majority of there time shining their armor or fighting amongst each other. (Quote from Mike warniky former Christian comedian) May he who is with out sin cast the first stone. For god so loved the world that he gave his only son that who so ever believes in him will not perish but have ever lasting life. I don’t need four walls to have my faith. I don’t need my designated seat for a sermon. 2 or more belivers congregating in the fellowship of god is a congregation. Be there for all of gods children lost or found and lead them with courage, faith, and love as they need it. God will guide us and help us to do what is right. This is just my view but I believe and that’s what matters. I may be considered by many to be the red headed step child of god but at least I know in my heart wear I stand. I’m sure there are those who may disagree with my views but god gave us the free will to disagree and for that I thank him because he allows us to be who we need to be not what the world says we need to be. Please remember if you beat someone with a club they will follow until the can get away but if you feed someone and treat them as an equal they will walk with you. Be the table and a friend and let god do the leading.

  • John C.

    Another rehashed church bashing article. Yes there are “bad” churches. Most I have seen are reaching out to the communities is real ways. Our church: mens and womens jail ministry, nursing home ministry, food pantry that delivers monthly as well, thrift store, and gives to foreign missions. Has a separate building (costly) for the purpose of reaching those in need. We have Sunday school at the church and small groups that meet at various times in various places. There are multiple corporate outreaches as well as encouragment for individual evangelism. And yes, upgrading santuary, childrens and youth areas too. (Oh those are bad things, forgot.) We are not the only ones doing that in our town either. Article writer, if the church you pastor is that bad then maybe try something else.

  • Absolute, unequivocal agreement.

  • Shartnado2, the Sloppy One

    People don’t go to church cause it takes 5 seconds on Google to debunk the talking snakes and impossible stories about the world being 5000 years old. You did it to yourselves church and you allowed no room for discussion. Enjoy your final days the sun is setting on your fairy tale gimmicks.

  • Chris Kramer

    So true! But it doesn’t have to be this way.. The congregation I serve in Central Oregon thrives, but not because of any rock-star, fancy worship or slick preaching. We share 200 cords of firewood every winter with needy neighbors. We move over a ton of food each week into family kitchens through a modest foodbank that never asks for identification. We converted our pesticide based landscaping into an organic food forest to model responsible land use and to feed the hungry. We aren’t particularly interested in anybody’s gender preferences.. and post-church oregonians see these as evidence of a compassionate and relevant mission they are interested in contributing to.
    Of course, the message we share inside the sanctuary on Sunday about following Jesus who challenges church and state, feeds, forgives and heals without copays.. etc. motivates and informs these genuine public choices.
    Sometimes we still use big churchy words, but not to win any souls. We trust God to do that part along the way.

  • Al Burgermeister

    I was a minister in the Church but finally turned away because of all the certainty and judgmentalism and self-righteousness….and the assignment of roles based on gender, sexual orientation, social status and on and on… Then I found Unitarian Universalism….the most open, supportive, socially conscious, environmentally aware, nonjudgmental religious community imaginable. Jesus, the Buddha, Krishna, Abraham, Mohammed….all would feel right at home. Enough with the “Christian” church!! Not interested whatsoever in THAT “in crowd”!!!

  • Guest

    What church language is too difficult? I’ve never heard “eschatology” from the pulpit. Are we to abandon terms like Salvation? Redemption? Atonement? Or heaven forbid the R word–REPENTANCE? Ugh.

  • Mark-John Haug

    ” For the love of God, reach out already”. Well said!

  • Will

    Good thing you have zero evidence to back up your claims that this is why people are leaving church.

  • Horatio Hornblower

    too dramatic, the same old pedestrian attack on the church culture sin certainly has an impact on receptivity. sure the church has problems but there is an arrogance to assume that the church can fix all her problems. there are generations that fall away and then there are generations that experience a move of God; the difference is humility repentance , and God’s out pouring.

  • Leah

    I disagree with the second one…we like to be spoon fed, we have allowed ourselves to be dumbed down, and we just want basics. The Bible has more to it than those few things you mentioned. Yes, of course, talk about love and joy and death, but don’t leave out parts of the Bible because “it might be too much for people or they might not understand.” Explain it to them. I know kids and teenagers that understand deep theology. We need to stop sugar-coating and dumbing down God’s Word. He put it in there, we need to know it. It’s not trail mix…don’t pick out what you like and throw away the rest.

  • Marcus

    So you’re asking messed up, sinful people who come to church because they’re lives are falling apart to act perfectly in God’s love and exhibit it perfectly to the rest of the world? This article does nothing but to make our world more divisive. I’m about as f*cked up as anyone else, but quit making this an us vs them.

  • ChadL

    John, I am bothered by your article. People need to stop blaming the church and start looking in the mirror. I know, I know..sounds harsh in our culture of wanting to be accepted. But what if doctrine does matter? What is social work programming is not the thing that will bring the droves of people to Christ? How many verses in the NT actually point to such efforts as a means to make disciples? Hmmm. Everyone wants to take a pot-shot at the church it seems today. I think this article is filled with gross misrepresentations. The church IS loving and is active in society and around the world. Our local churches are some of the ONLY organizations helping the needy here and abroad without receiving a check for their efforts. Yes, churches can be legalistic, show-oriented, and use jargon that distances people. However, what if the problem isn’t our model or mode. What if its deeper? Why this craze about appealing to and embracing the masses? Maybe people are leaving because we aren’t loving enough. Or, maybe they are leaving because they define “love” as the acceptance of any activity or lifestyle they embrace? Christians, we need to start building up the church, not tearing her down. Yes, there are problems, but there are a lot of good things happening as well. I suggest we start pointing toward and encouraging the positives and stop punching the Bride of Christ in the gut. There are enough out there doing that without Christians joining in.

    • Amber Daniels

      another one to totally miss the point

      • ChadL

        I’d be happy to listen and be corrected if you care to share, Amber.

  • Chris Barnes

    This is an interesting article – one that has aspects which I find myself in COMPLETE agreement, and others where I don’t think I could disagree more. Let me go through his points one by one…

    Fwiw, I am a 51yo who has been a Christian for 46 years now. But I have not attended a church for the past 6 years. So while the author wrote this from the perspective of “why do lost people not come to church”, my view is somewhat different.

    Point 1: completely agree. One of the items that drove us from our previous church was that the “show” was so loud, we literally couldn’t stand to be toward the front of the church. It was physically painful. And then when the comment was made (from the pulpit) “if that didn’t bless you, there’s something wrong with you” …

    Point 2: that might be the case in churches that are very traditional, but I don’t think it has much truth for the majority of churches these days.

    Point 3: Here’s where the author & I part ways. I have come to hold the position that THE PURPOSE of the church is to lift up the body. Outreach is supposed to be a function of each Christian – is it *not* supposed to be a function of the church. And it certainly shouldn’t be one of THE main focuses. Instead, what churches should have is an almost singular focus on INreach.
    I attended the same church that one of the other commenters attends – she points to how wonderful their “Big Life Sunday” is. I point to it as a shining example of just how badly churches misunderstand what their purpose should be.

    Point 4: I agree – but in a different vein. The author points to current event issues. Instead where I think the church FOR DECADES has missed the mark is in trying to label things which are simply choices as sin. Drinking alcohol. Smoking. Dancing. Playing cards. Tattoos. These things are NOT sin. Nor is half a hundred other things that the pious love to look down their noses at.
    Trying to call them sin is basically the same thing the Pharisees did. And it was this group – not sinners – whom Jesus belittled, mocked, and physically beat.

    Point 5 is pretty much an extension of Point 4.

  • Paul Meyers

    Love and Truth, two legs which must work together to walk on any path or work of God. One without the other is corruption. I agree hopping on one leg or the other, even, temporarily is not doing anyone any good (re: bait and switch). Very few people were at the cross when Jesus died in our best view of love and truth perfectly manifest. The broad way and the “few” is a hard thing for me to process.

  • Russ Cutler

    There is an answer for all this. It is found in Christ’s Church which has 80,000 full time missionaries, 1 Prophet, 12 Apostles, true priesthood authority like Peter, James, and John had, is found in nearly every country on this planet, does not have rock shows or speak in words nobody understands. Christ’s true church is on the earth right now and has none of the elements in this article. Christ accepts everybody for who they are and where they are at in life. People are joining this church at the rate of 300,000 per year. See for more info. 🙂

    • Amber Daniels

      I have been apart of THAT church and just for the record, they are no different than any other denomination.

      • Russ Cutler

        I’m sad to hear that. People are people no matter the church they attend. Christ’s true church is a lay ministry, and it operates with 100% volunteers. As such, some people will make mistakes, and some feelings will get hurt. But know this, the Doctrine or teachings of the “True” Church are unfaltering, as they came from revelation direct from God to his Prophet. The True Church of Christ does not entertain with bands, loud music or light shows. It is a way of life that demands commitment to get the most out of. I personally devoted 2 years at age 19 to teach people about Christ’s True Church. That experience forged my faith for a lifetime. I’m curious, if any others have left the LDS faith, where then did they find “happiness”? “A religion that does not demand the sacrifice of all things will never have power enough to produce the faith necessary for salvation” – Joseph Smith 🙂

    • robert

      Oh you mean the ‘church’ of polygamists that do the vicarious baptisms, deny hell, have an extra ‘Bible’, believe in Atlantis and teach that Jesus and satan were brothers? The ones where Father God had physical children, you can become a god yourself and populate your own planet? No thanks.

  • Curtis

    One of my jobs is worship leader. I try to do this for God’s glory and I make an effort not to trivialize what anyone gives for God’s kingdom. Thanks for dismissing me though.

  • Michael

    Also, I could add to his complaint. We are made for relationship, but when I attend your church you have no singles group and do not plan to add one.
    But you tell me I should be happy without a wife.

    • robert

      I’m single too Michael. I wish you the best. I think you can find a godly wife, but I hope you could be happy in church without one. My present church doesn’t have a ‘singles group’, but every ‘singles group’ I went to in the past was very dysfunctional anyway, so I don’t miss it. I’m sorry for that conflicting message you got. I’m bold enough now to where I’d point that out to the leadership. I was more timid in the past. We all have different experiences, don’t we?

  • Amber Daniels

    I didn’t accept Christ until I was almost 20. I did not grow up in a Christian home. Actually, it was quite the opposite. People like me are coming in from the cold and wanting the love of the Church. Just as we are. Let us grow in God’s timing, not your’s. Understand that we are learning. God will change us how HE wants us to be changed. Not the way that you believe we should be changed. God has changed my heart, and a lot of the ways that I think. What HE has not changed is my personality, which was influenced by my past. I don’t speak “godly”. Yes, to some of us that is actually a language, and it turns people off that don’t know what the heck you are talking about.

    We want real. In your face, I love you no matter what, you are a child of God no matter your views, real. My pastor makes the statement that someone is “so heavenly minded, that they are no earthly good.” This is a very true statement.

    The thing is, is that the Church believes that it is the unsaved person living in sin that is the problem…but they are not the whole problem. It is on both sides. The sin that they “Church” walks around with and does not acknowledge is also part of the problem. When you look down your nose at me, do you really think that I want to listen to the gospel? When you speak with arrogance saying that your daddy, mama, aunt, uncle, grand-daddy, great-grand-daddy (etc) was a preacher so you KNOW what you are talking about….well honey, get off your high horse…you probably don’t know jack!

    WE WANT TO BE LOVED! NOT JUDGED! We are not going to listen to someone that judges us! Even being saved now, and going to church, I don’t like most churches, cause I am still looked down upon because I don’t speak “godly”.

  • Samuel Balmer

    I have read quite a number of these comments in relation to this article – it is very noticeable the lack of scripture and the sharing of personal ideologies. IN BRIEF –
    What characterised the NT church – Acts 11v19-29
    V19 – it was a church composed of ordinary people
    V20 – it was a church of great diversity
    V21 – the hand of the Lord was with them
    V23 – there was evidence that God was at work in people’s lives
    V26 – it was a church of “disciples” – being taught the word
    V27 – it was a caring church in sending relief to others
    Ch 13 v1-3 the church was missional and its leaders in touch with God.
    Let’s share with churches what they can be, in the light of the WORD OF GOD
    Paul – “that which cometh on me daily, the care of ALL the churches.”

  • KP

    I’ve heard it said this way: The Father invited the whole world to an all expenses paid banquet. The “church” is made up of those that accepted the invitation and are willing to be served by Him.

    With that in mind, I’m almost inclined to think that the “church” referred to in this article isn’t the real church at all. It seems awkward to say, but those that are leaving should probably be commended for their obedience. The Father is calling folks away from that institution. It doesn’t fit the family model. This will resonate with some.

    “And they shall all be taught of God…”

  • Jeremiah S. Trewhella

    Yeah, your article is pretty confusing… So what do you want the “church” to do for you again?

  • Brian Nelson

    I disagree with much of this. If you want the real hard truth of why people are leaving, get this free download.

  • These are all reasons why people leave a particular church, not THE Church.
    People are as fickle as the some of the churches described here. But in reality, people leave the Church because they’re not truly born again. The true Christian will hit every church in the county to find a good one. The folks who say they have “given up on the church” usually spend more time preaching the “good news” of “You don’t have to go to church to be a Christian!” than the Good News about Christ…it’s sheer laziness and arrogance. You aren’t fooling God, get your rear end planted in a Church, and remember, it’s not all about you.
    “Come as you are” churches are either false advertising or preaching a false gospel. For starters, how else can they “come”? God receives you the way you are, but he loves you enough not to leave you that way. And if your “Come as you are church” puts a low value on Bible study, and tells you God isn’t interested in modifying your behavior, you’re not in a church, you’re in a cult. Get your nose stuck in that dusty paper weight you keep on the coffee table so people can see how “spiritual” you are (The Bible) and equip yourself to weed out false prophets and false doctrine.
    A little country church with no lights or screaming guitars, no PowerPoint or hip preacher…a church determined to preach Christ and him crucified, that puts a premium on holiness, encourages regular in-depth Bible study, and admit we will suffer for the sake of Christ, and are not ashamed to plead the blood…these are the ones who see people being regenerated, coming to genuine faith, growing in that faith, and producing the fruit that accompanies salvation. And people who leave because they don’t like being challenged to grow (i.e., “stop sinning”) just don’t get it either…that’s one of the main reasons to go to Church and become an active member. The Church does not exist to validate your ungodly lifestyle. And until you surrender completely to God in Christ you will never know peace or the joy that surpasses all understanding, because you’re still lost as a duck in a snow storm:
    “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” (‭1 John‬ ‭2‬:‭19‬ ESV)

  • Lakeea Terrell-Gaskins

    Wow. I loved this article. I have been born again and I attend service , bible study and went to New Life Bible Institute. I “come as I am” and I continue to because I know Jesus. I will probably never look the part of a holliar than thou Sister in the church. My relationship is with God. My faith is in Him. When you really decide what this walk is about… Jesus always used less regular folkss..My Jonah…rebellious and I, my Rehab…Promiious and all, my David…hmmm, my Peter, aggressive and I, my Paul…persecuter and I. This relationship is an individual thing. I have two friends in a church I’ve been in since 2003. I dnt “fit in” with the people but guess what I fit in with God.

  • joan

    Well put! Grew up in very closed church, got divorced (but if I’d change my mind I could still be ‘saved’ in that church’s mind). I for the life of me can’t understand how some church communities miss the part about how God is the only judge. I totally agree that I lost my church but not my faith.

  • Don Mingo

    Ah, shallow . . . I’ve Pastored churches where I sought to be the loving caring talking pastor. Same result. People turn on you when they don’t get their what they want above everyone else’s best welfare.

    • Mary Titus

      I’m schizophrenic and it’s completely demonic and I’ve yet to find a church that helps. There are a few ministries that do help (I’ve literally had to travel across state lines) but the people that do this work are seriously unpleasant or are just weird. I know Jesus cared for people like the demoniac in the cave, I really do believe in Him and the Gospel, but after spending time with you lot and trying to find help I simply have nothing left. For Him or anyone else.

      None of you genuinely follow Him, do what he did (like cast out devils) or love like Him.

      You all talk the talk, but none of you walk the walk.

  • Jess

    I don’t usually throw myself into the crossfire of hot topics, but I’d like to put in my two cents.
    We are all familiar with the articles written about why today’s generation is leaving the Church. Some cite studies and assert that millenials have less interest in religion. Other Christian-focused articles confront churches with 7 Reasons Why People Leave the Church (like this one) blaming churches for being too shallow, being too flashy, being too judgmental, etc. “The church” is providing a service but providing it poorly, so our generation is looking to have its needs met elsewhere.
    In other words, our generation is complaining a lot.
    I think a fundamental question we should ask ourselves when we list our problems with “the Church” is what is our definition of “the Church?” Biblically speaking, every true follower of Christ comprises His body, the Church. That’s us, you guys. We are complaining about US, not just them. We are selfishly demanding that the more mature believers lead us without fail, but then we turn our backs in disgust when they stumble. We call them bad leaders and walk away like spoiled children. We are pointing fingers at ourselves, which is Satan’s primary way to cause division and stir up trouble, keeping our focus off of Christ. This keeps us in a stagnant state of spiritual infancy. Instead of taking part of the Body we are rejecting it and waiting for our pastors and elders to give us a more engaging pastime or better conversation. And we are fickle. First we wanted more drums, more bass, more technology, more pep. Now we are condemning churches for providing what we asked for. Does this sound like any children you might be related to or babysit for?
    “The Church” is not a board of aging deacons and pastors with antiquated ideals; nor is it naive coffee-loving leaders who invest in too many stage lights for worship. It’s not a building or an institution, yet we point fingers as if it’s our corporate office and we are on strike until they treat us better as employees and provide better benefits. I’ll admit that there’s a lot of crap going on in individual churches today that need to change. But our leader isn’t the local building we attend on Sunday. It’s Jesus Christ. If we are really following Him, we need to assume equal responsibility for what today’s Church looks like, and dive in to work with every other follower beside us.
    I’m tired of isolating my generation as “this generation.” We aren’t special. We don’t have it together. We are spoiled rotten and arrogant, when many (not all) of our pastors have been following Christ for years and are doing their best where THEY are at, just like we are trying to do. If we want change, then we need bring it to the table as an ACTIVE member of the Body. Instead of turning up our noses at our church’s ideals, let’s dive in and work WITH them. They are sinners. But guess what? We are sinners too, and we are most assuredly the more immature sinners. We are all seen the same in the eyes of Christ, washed clean by His blood and free of condemnation. I doubt Christ sees age, gender or culture. I’m pretty sure He just sees His children fighting a lot and walking out on each other.

    Stop blaming “the Church.” Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand. And we wonder why the Church is in such a mess? If we see something that needs to be changed, then let’s step up and help change happen. Stop walking out because our pastors aren’t being perfect. One day, we will be in their shoes, and we are going to want grace from the next generation when we mess up.
    I’m not making excuses for the dire mistakes that many churches make. But we are only adding to the problem of shallowness and materialism and judgment in the Body, because we are JUST as important parts of the Body that cause ripple effects. Man up, generation. Take up our crosses and follow our Lord side by side.

  • DrPlokta

    You missed out the most important reason of all, which is all the insistence on this God stuff. I want a church that will teach that God is a metaphor that made sense to our ancestors as a way of explaining the world, but is now best treasured as a historical reminiscence rather than anything with any existence outside our heads.

  • Jlimon

    Where is prayer?

  • j h

    Having been born and raised in church all my life in the same denomination churches are rapidly falling away. We used to have Sunday school, Sunday morning worship, Sunday night service, and a Wednesday night bible study.
    Sadly the denomination I have attended all my life some of there churches no longer have Sunday school, Sunday night service or a Wednesday night bible study. People say we’re too busy for God. Really? Is that the reason why we got rid of Sunday school, Sunday night and Wednesday nights?
    What happen with searching, seeking and following God with our whole body soul and spirit? I truly believe God is going to spit us out of his mouth because we as the church have gone lukewarm towards the things of God as it says in his word.
    When is the last time you heard a salvation message from the pulpit? When is the last time you heard a message on heaven and hell?
    When is the last time you heard a message that smoking and drinking were wrong like it says in the bible?
    When is the last time you heard a message that homosexuality was wrong like it says in the bible? We have so many churches jumping on the homosexuality bandwagon that they must have forgot what god’s word says against it. I agree we need to love the sinner and hate the sin but when the sinner does not repent of his sin then we the church are not reaching them.
    Worship service when I grew up we sang some good old fashion hymns. Now we sing worship songs with a lively band it makes me feel like I’m in a bar instead of church. Some worship services are all about the lights, noise and how loud they can be.

  • Stephen McKerracher

    That has nothing to do with why most people are leaving the church. We are leaving because your faith claims are empty and absurd. There is no reason or evidence to believe any of them, and we see the negative effects of believing those lies.
    That’s why you are having problems demonstrating lies. Because you are basing your lives on archaic ancient lies/mythology. Look at the fruit you are bearing. Don’t look to try and arbitrarily change the fruit… you need a new tree. A tree rooted in critical thinking.
    Which is so sad in this modern age. We actually know enough to live a happy successful life based on what is knowable… religious speculation is not necessary.
    Show one credible reason why I, or anyone SHOULD go back, and I will in a heart beat. But until you answer your, we’ll be living our life outside the church.

  • Stephen McKerracher
  • Vicki Sewell Larson

    This is why I love my church…St Paul Presbyterian. We have a Sanctuary building and another building for Sunday School, nursery, fellowship and CHoir practice and Church office. We have a full kitchen because we love to eat but no coffee pot, just the gallon coffee percolator. It is simple and our minister speaks plainly about God’s love. None of the super church activities.

  • Calvin

    Oh my goodness, someone sent me this article on Dear Church, here’s why people are really leaving you.
    A couple of days ago a bishop said to me that someone had brought in two ladies to the church, but they were wearing pants. His wife later went and purchased dresses for them to wear, but he said that they will not wear them. He also said that if they didn’t put those dresses on that they could not be a part of his church. And in the same sentence said but my main focus is the help save a soul. Oh my God, I could not believe what I was hearing, so I called him later, and told him that I had concerns about what he had said. He denied that he said that. So I continue to tell him that if he is concerned about a persons soul, I didn’t think what a person is wearing should stop them from being a part of a church. He said he had rules, and if anyone did not follow them, they don’t have to come to his church, and he also told me that he was not going to continue to talk to me. WHAT?
    Pastors, Ministers, Bishops, Elders, some of you all have it twisted. Just like a hospital is for the sick, not the well. The church is not for those so called saved people that has been in the church for years, and is still taking up space on a pew every Sunday, you should be strong enough now to get out in the streets, or wherever needed (outside of the church) and help save a lost soul. The church is for the lost, needy, a sinful soul, someone that is hurting, and is tired of the way they are living and that is ready to give there life to Christ. Thank you for writing this article.

  • Extremists

    Main reason it’s not real. How is a belief system going to help. Nobody hafto believe they’re problems because they’re real. And the reason churches haven’t changed much in 29 years is clearly you are not.

  • Theo Morton

    Also, lack of quality theological education of the congregation. The ad-nauseum repetition of praise choruses, for example, lack the depth, substance and power of living theology. Talk about “love, and joy, and forgiveness, and death, and peace, and God” all you want, but if you don’t understand the power of the Redemption, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Justification, Sanctification, Discipleship, etc. — church is just another feel good, self-help group. FOCUS IS ON JESUS CHRIST. Anything less is not Church.

    • robert

      I long to go deeper and to hear messages that are ‘meat.’ I go to a great church but I need avenues to go deeper into maturity and godly character. Too often it’s spiritual candy bars and no meat and green beans. So I hear you on that.

  • TheVirj

    Andddddd…we’re not being open enough to hear and obey the Holy Ghost Who started the church…Having begun in the Spirit we have tried to finish in the flesh. Programs do not take the place of God’s Presence…

  • Luther Willianson

    People, you are the church. You make it what it is. You have a need, it’s your responsibility to go to the pastor and the elders to seek guidance.

  • Rebecca

    It is unfair to expect Christians/churchgoers to be perfect! We are sinners just like everyone else. We just know we serve a forgiving God. Church is a place where all who are striving to develop their PERSONAL relationship can go and be around others who are attempting to do the same. Not all churches believe the same things. There are numerous denominations and it can all get confusing. I am blessed to attend a church where the pastor is college educated. He used to be an extremely successful attorney. Our church volunteers and supports a rescue mission. Just like finding the right doctor doesn’t happen on the first visit, doesn’t mean you stop going to the doctors. It takes work.

  • Glasslass

    I am a lapsed Catholic and one Sunday decided to attend the local service. The priest preformed some of the mass but what seemed like hoards of people were running around on the altar with guitars strumming and humming. The priest didn’t give the sermon, my next door neighbor gave it, trust me this was not a good thing. Where is my religion? Where is the priest except to act as a firgurehead with other people doing his job.

    I went to a friends church with her recently and once again all the lay people were doing all the speaking. Lady stood up to give the sermon and started castigating the Jewish people and Israel. Ok, so not what I was expecting. When asked after the service if it was that church’s policy she replied “I don’t discuss my personal political views”. Her point of view was not this church’s POV but she is allows to preach a political view and it’s ok. NO its not. I won’t be walking in those doors again
    So God and I have a relationship just without the hype and glitz and guitars. I don’t need your lack of leadership, lack of religious conviction, and general lack of overall being a leader. God and I talk just fine without you in the picture.

  • Shartnado2, the Sloppy One

    Cant you all just look at your selves in the mirror and say do I really believe in this because I want to or because I’m scared not to? If you have enough brainpower to log on to a computer and read this then you should be smart enough to admit to yourself the “book of truth” is less likely to have happened then a Superman comic book

  • Chris Hubbard

    I am shocked and appalled that these are the reasons given for people leaving the Church. Why aren’t people just leaving because it is simply incorrect? Or because it is only very loosely based on reality? Or how about because it has no more to offer morally than any mother goose story could provide? In fact, judging by the horrible prejudice displayed by most Christians, I would say it has less to offer. If these are the reasons people are leaving, then all you are doing is saying that people are morons and totally incapable of educating themselves.

  • Travis J. Robertson


  • happyhannah4u

    This REALLY speaks to me. My youngest daughter just shared it on FB. LOVE TO ALL.

  • Debs

    Fab article john! Spot on…

  • Charles

    I come to church to be served. That’s why the Puritans and Reformers called it a service. It’s where my soul is served by the living God. The Westminster Confession defines the ordinary means of grace as the Word, prayer and sacrament. Through these I connect with the real presence of God. The pastor is a facilitator, a waiter that brings God’s meal so I can eat at the Lord’s Supper, hear the Lord speak and acknowledge, encounter and engage with the real presence of the living God who resides with my soul through the Holy Spirit. John 17:3 defines eternal life as knowing the one true God through Jesus. I hope those who desire to know the one true God are enriched and refreshed at church, have a meaningful encounter and grow in the knowledge of the truth. I hope those who are looking for entertainment or fire insurance are repelled at the service and realize they don’t belong there. May my church continue to be not about the killer bees: bodies, budgets, buildings, the band and bashes, but about building up the body in knowing God, loving God and being an instrument in His hands the other six days of the week. Praise God for the few Christ-centered churches in the midst of our man-centered church culture. If the sermon is about me and not knowing God through Christ – I run, run, run. If a sermon would be just as acceptable at a seminar or social club – I run, run run. If you want an all-about-me feel-good moralistic or therapeutic pseudo-Christianity there are plenty of motivational speakers, like Joel Osteen, that appeal to the masses who want that false gospel. They aren’t leaving that church. But you won’t like my church. You will run, run run.

    • robert

      You lost me at ‘I come to church to be served.’ I stopped reading there.

  • Dave

    I grew up in the church (sadly) and this article misses the mark. Churches are in decline because more and more people see them for the brain washing social clubs they are. Besides that…the masses are waking up to real spiritual truth regarding God/the Universe…that has nothing to do with organized religion. We are all the eyes and ears of God…each pure God experiencing heaven on earth. There is no devil or hell where “sinners” are punished for eternity. And…there is no “savior”. Never was, never will be.

    • Charles

      Nice opinion, but grounded only in your personal preferences. There is sufficient evidence to trust the Bible is God’s revelation of Himself for those who desire to know Him. Jesus defined eternal life as knowing the one true God (John 17:3). Those who desire to know God will find Him. Those that don’t will define their own God as an idol reflecting their own personal preferences, rather than through revelation. Redemptive history is like an artist’s painting reflecting His attributes. Those who desire to know God will have their desire and be with Him forever and be examples reflecting His mercy and love. And those who only want to use God’s stuff and pretend He doesn’t exist will have their desire too being separated from God and serve as examples of His justice and punishment for a lifetime of dishonor (Rom 1:18-32). They will be like a black velvet showcasing the beauty of a diamond. My statements are not based on my opinion or preferences but revelation. If the Bible is not God’s revelation of Himself through Jesus Christ, the Bible says to pity me (1Cor 15:17-19); otherwise I pity you.

  • Zack Clark

    I realize that this comment is public and it will be against what I’m saying in it, but I have not found another way to contact you John, so once you see this, please remove it from the comments. If I had an email or something I would send it to you privately. But here it goes.

    Your statements may be true, but your method does more harm than good. Yes there are problems with the church. But airing it in public does not solve anything. It puts people on the defense, or it starts a venting session. And then people who want to leave the church or have never been in the church see this and it just adds more to the list of reasons to not join the church, because they fight amongst themselves. The church needs to be a united cause. Paul talks about this kind of thing in 1 Corinthians 5. We aren’t supposed to take our problems from within the church and throw it out in front of everyone to see. Because surely someone involved in the church is smart enough to solve these problems (which I think the point of this article is that you have ideas on how to solve it). So I agree with what you’re saying, but you’re hurting the church by trying to help it. Paul wrote letters and addressed the issues in the church, but he sent them to the churches and didn’t post them on the street corner. But people do need to hear these things. And I saw you’re a speaker, so if you aren’t already, I encourage you to talk about these topics when you are asked to speak places. They are extremely valuable.

  • This addresses some of the reasons that I stopped going to church but it has nothing to do with the reason that I stopped believing in God altogether, which is that there are absolutely no good reasons to think that any such critter exists or has ever existed.

    • dan

      So goodness it’s yours all by your self. Pease explain

      • Basically, I became more skeptical. I need a reason to believe more than I need a reason to disbelieve.

        You don’t have to be able to prove absolutely that God doesn’t exist in order to stop believing that it exists. You merely have to realize that there are no good reasons to think that it does exist and that there are some decent rational arguments against its existence.

        To be more precise, I should say that, to the best of my knowledge, there are no good reasons to think that God exists. However, I’ve been rationally examining these issues for a few decades now and I think it’s very unlikely that there are any arguments for God’s existence which I have not already analyzed and found wanting.

        As for meaning, meaning is personal, not inherent. Something has meaning only to the extent that it means something to someone. My life has meaning because it is meaningful to me and to those who love me. That’s the only source of meaning that I need – and, of course, I see no reason to think that there is any other source of meaning.

        In my view, the concept of “eternal justice” is mere wish fulfillment. We have an instinctive sense of fairness* and it’s only natural to object to the unfairness we see regularly. So it goes. The universe has no awareness of you and I, neither any concern for us. That may seem a bit harsh but I prefer a harsh truth rather than a comforting lie.

        *When I say that we have an instinctive sense of fairness, I’m basing that on scientific studies with chimpanzees and other non-human primates which strongly indicate that they, too, have a “sense of fairness”.

  • CharlieJoe

    Interesting article. “stop evangelizing us, and preaching at us, and fighting us, and judging us, and sin-diagnosing us, long enough to simply hear us …”

    Hey church, be like the rest of the world. Don’t tell us what God says is right or wrong, evil or bad…let us make those decisions, you just need to accept and tolerate us. Hey church, stop fighting us on our sins and choices, stop quoting scripture to us because it makes you sound judgmental…hey church, stop using the bible to show us and tell us that how we are sinful…we just want you to shut-up and listen to us….we want you to accept us, be like us, approve of us. Tolerate us or we won’t come. Cater to us or we won’t come. Change your ways or we won’t come. Be more like the world, or we won’t come.

  • Michelle Forbes

    The last sentence in point #3, ‘Leave the building.’ I have been saying that for YEARS! What about the unsaved outside the four walls?

  • dan

    I would agree if the American church system was the church. It isn’t we only have these kind of problems, because the system has been teaching love without judgment. The reality is yes people have to come as they are but you can’t stay as you are. You have to be reborn! (Not to use church jargon) You have to be intrinsically different than the you that you want to be. Jesus did go after the outcast, but he gave them a decision. Everyone can not follow him, because narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life.

  • Holla Lou


  • Darcy Downing

    Wonderful! Well written and to the heart of God. I truly appreciate your inside insight. I wonder if it’s God’s desire to fix such a thing as today’s church. Where is there room to see His eyes, wonder at His voice, and simply sit with the lover of our souls?

  • keninwi

    I hear what you are saying Virginia. A woman works all week at her outside the home job then comes home and does the mother and wife thing. Then she gets up Sunday morning and flies around the house get kids and husband off to church, so she can come along and listen to a message on how if she loved the Lord more she would give more time to the church for this or that program. There is only one woman who has it worse then you, that would be the wife of a pastor. You know men get much of the same stuff also just in different ways. Here is what I think the cure is. There should be no paid pastors who have all day to sit around and think up church ideas and programs that we should all do to get the approval of good christian, that is handed out by the people who dream up the programs. I bet you if pastors and other church leaders had to spend the whole day working 10 to 12 hrs with drive time before they came home and had to do the father thing and husband thing and then the pastor thing, their messages would be really different and so would their ideas of what a godly christian life is.

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  • Lysa J

    I was welcomed into a church congregation where I spent a good deal of time and met a few people whom helped me along the way in joining. However, once my spouse and I filed for divorce: all that help and goodwill left. A nun lied about my behavior in a letter written by her and about me. It never made it to a judge. I got to see it though. I went and dealt directly with her and she told me, “It didn’t have to be so bad.” I complained to the priest in charge – “I am not in charge of the nuns.” It’s all take and no give. I was never once invited or offered any information on divorce groups within the church. I asked the priest whom helped me in the past for guidance – something – anything. He did not return my calls. We had to go to a food pantry for food and luckily another church congregation helped us pay our electric bill one month. My kids were supposed to go to private school there and it will not happen. Ever. They are free to believe what they choose, but I will not enable the church here any longer. I will not give my money to support the hypocrisy.

    Besides the above: go look at what members of your flock say in social media posted online. Some of it is terrible. Awful. You don’t get a free pass because somebody died for your sins. Lead by example. Last week I met up with a priest and I said “So when will women be able to be pastors or when will you be allowed to marry?” He was offended. So start treating your flock equally. Be there for them in and choose not to take sides in personal matters. And, answer all questions honestly. Stop being pricks online. That’s a good start.

    Thing is I know the church I had joined thinks the family I was married to is going to gift them a huge amount of money when the matriarch dies. Sorry suckers. I was the one with the money and you won’t see a penny of it.

  • GaryS

    What part of the country are you in Lisa?

  • Lysa J

    We are in So Cal.

  • Lysa J

    Yes. I can also confirm there are plenty of predators where men in power are having all sorts of sex with congregation members. I grew up attending Baptist services in Bakersfield where the preacher whom married my parents in a big society wedding: was fired for sleeping with someone he was counseling, a woman. “Everyone is flawed” is a copout. To me sleeping with a member of your congregation SHOULD be illegal: like a doctor sleeping with a patient. Christians argue for more church in schools: I argue for more law enforcement in church.

  • Barney and Babs Benson

    Yes my first wife and I split because she was sleeping with a member of our church. I forgave them all. It was hard returning to the church again and seeing everyone look at us afterward. We changed churches. My second wife would like to study to become a minister and I have told her she should. I feel like women are not taken seriously by religious leaders.

  • Sharon Crawford Storck


  • Christopher David Eaton

    While there are some things in the article that have some merit, such as the allusion to the corporatation of the American Church, I find this article really misses the point. The point is that in all these failing churches the Gospel is not being faithfully preached and there is absolutely no church discipline. And please, I am really tired of the idea that the church has to meet someone where they are. Yes, Jesus did meet sinners where they were…guess what, He also said he was sent to heal the SICK. He also nearly every sinner He healed to go and sin no more. As far as using dead language…well, that language is the Word of God and it has His power if it is used properly. Just pick up a recent translation and use it, for God’s sake. The author seems to think we can somehow convince the lost…and yes they are LOST and they are SINNERS, to be part of the church ‘group’ without having, in the final analysis, to believe anything….just as long as they feel good that makes everything ok.

  • Colonel Jones

    The author of this blog needs to get over himself as do the rest of you sheep. John, the problem isn’t the church, it’s attention seeker’ s like you! You are one on a never ending list of people who think they’re the first ones who have finally figured it out 2000 years later. When you take shots at the “Church” , you’re taking cheap shots of millions of people you’ve never known or will ever meet. People like everyone else, people who are trying their best, people who are new in areas and just trying to get involved. As a matter of fact, my wife went to a church plant “community church”, and the only thing we’ve been able to get out of it has been an inside joke we share now since not one single soul came and spoke to us except the pastor and his wife (the business owners essentially). Although I really do appreciate the laugh my wife and I share , I don’t feel the need to go blog to the rest of the world how you church planters “ARE THE PROBLEM” .
    I remember an old preacher in a sermon years ago saying, “all these people going around labeling others close minded, actually are the closed minded ones”. How true. So get over yourself! You want to keep blaming the “Church” (whatever you think you mean by that)? Remember, you’re no different than every liberal chaotic agenda since the beginning, always hating and blaming those who happen to be in the position you’re not. We don’t need a savior Sir, that role was already passed out and its not you. And one last thing, whats made you an expert on racism and bigotry, the problem of racism has more to do with white people like you who would rather give lip service to black people by making them think you’re one of the ‘good ones’, when actually you don’t have the guts to speak the truth in fear that you won’t be liked. Oh , and let me add, it’s always been the few! Big churches, work, bars, your precious little community churches….you get snubbed everywhere, most people ARE out for themselves. News flash….everybody’s got a story, get over it.

    • robert

      Nailed it!

  • Danny

    Some great thoughts, thanks for putting the time into writing this.

    So, how do we change?

    I suspect the root of the problem is a little deeper than just trying to change our behaviour…

    Maybe the reason we’re judgemental, dismissive and condescending is because we actually live in fear of a God that we suspect treats us like that. Can we truly transform without reforming our beliefs about the One we call ‘Father’?

  • ReligionisDone

    This article hit the nail on the head in many respects. What it left out was the “wars” being fought by the church are losers. Abortion isn’t going away because you want it to, try to legislate it away and hold protests outside of planned parenthood. If there were a possibility of having the Supreme Court reverse Roe v Wade, abortion will continue anyway, just in back alleys using coat hangers.

    Gays aren’t going away. Call them sinful fags that God hates all you want. They’re not going away. The churches miss these rather critical points time and time again. Hell, the Catholic church is in large part run by a bunch of gay men and they condescend to preach about marriage and childrearing.

    Religion: put a fork in it, it’s done.

  • phil112

    A lot of truth to that, sadly enough.

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  • John

    lol we wonder why people won’t stay with the church? We argue all the time like some are doing in the preceding post here( no offense intended, just an observation) Church folks just can’t seem to agree on much and we always must prove our point. Hey, I do it myself far too often I’m afraid. I’ve seen church split after church split over the trivial things and everyone always thinks they are the ones that are right on either side.

    Personally I appreciate this article for its honesty. Of course there are good people leaving the church and good people staying, but the message is being lost in our argumentative ways and our programs to attract fish to our own bowl without our going out fishing for them. Maybe we should preach Jesus message where all are welcomed to trust in him, but also repentance from our own ways. The message of salvation and his plan for his followers to go into the world (yes that includes our neighborhoods as well) and make disciples. A true Disciple will follow the path he sets before them and will, as they grow, realize how little of themselves is really important. There are specific things in the bible that if we would read them without twisting them around to fit our lifestyles, well they would speak to us about how we are to live.

    I’m afraid that most of us Christians *myself again too often) live using a “smoke screen” to both put a holy face on us for others to admire while it also keeps us from accepting truth to change our own lives.

    I have been involved in church all my life until recently when the last church argument caused me to wonder if I want to attend another one. Thanks John p for the honest thought provoking article. Lots of truth in it.

  • Nikki

    Preach it. If anything, I’d say that they attack everything that’s within them, which causes self destruction than what they could be battling what’s a threat outside of the Church. We’re the first to whimper away when paving for others who attack the Christian faith but throw bombs at the folks who want to be part of Christ. How does this make sense let alone put a foundation of what we could represent to the world around us?

  • Tyler

    Dear church, here’s why people are REALLY leaving you:

    1) Advancements in knowledge in the fields of Astronomy, Physics, Geology, Archaeology, Biology, History, and Textual Criticism (among others) has revealed that your holy book inspired by an all-knowing, all-powerful God is internally contradictory, contains many historical inaccuracies, and is completely ignorant of science. It also condones genocide, rape, slavery, and homophobia.

    2) With the advent of the internet and more free democratic societies today than at any previous point in human history, the information mentioned above is able to be accessed by and shared with more people than ever before. Anyone with doubts or curious questions is simply a few keystrokes away from finding real answers that haven’t been obfuscated by centuries of theological doubletalk.

  • Bobby

    So I read this Article and had some good thoughts but then the last part:

    “So yes, Church, even if you’re right, even if we’re totally wrong—even if we’re all petty, and self-centered, and hypocritical, and critical, and (I’ll say it), “sinful”—we’re still the ones searching for a place where we can be known and belong; a place where it feels like God lives, and you’re the ones who can show it to us.Even if the problem is me, it’s me who you’re supposed to be reaching, Church.So, for the love of God; reach already.”

    Let’s take this part “We’re still the ones searching for a place where we can be known and belong.

    I often want to say Dear People: You belong here, but the Lord is asking you to “Go now, and leave your life of sin” and calls you to Conversion and Repentance. Conversion takes a lifetime, but you are never going to be able to find a Church that suits “your life”. Christ gave us a Church and promised us that “the gates of Hell will never prevail against it.” He set up leaders to help govern it in his absence (to you do I give the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, what you bind and loose on earth, will be bound and loosed in heaven) ordering them to “teach them everything I’ve told you”. He said he would send us an “Advocate” to help guide us.

    We (those who are trained, whether it be laity, priest or religious) have been reaching out, and we’ve done so delicately, but people still do not want to leave there lives of sin. So at certain times giving the harder messages with fervor of “flipping tables” is sometimes necessary. People are not going to like it, just like they didn’t like Jesus’s teachings. But spare the rod, and the children will be happy to wallow in sin, because they’ve never been challenged to sacrifice. Just because the Church isn’t your recipe for success, doesn’t mean you can abbreviate “a place” to suit your way of life. As the prophet Isaiah said:

    …Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…

    The Church and her teaching is like a trainer or a Coach. They are there to help you, to guide you, to tell you what to do so that you can grow spiritually. If you don’t go to the gym, your never going to get physically fit. If you don’t go to Church (the gym) don’t receive the sacraments on a regular basis like the Eucharist (taking your supplements), Reconciliation (Therapy or Rehab) Refresh yourself with Church teaching, writings of the saints, Continuing Adult formation/Youth group/Religious Ed (Weight Trainers) you are going to suffer spiritually and became lazy and sinfully obese.

    The Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit, wants to teach us how to be Spiritually fit, and sometimes we stay true to our diet and some times we don’t go to the gym at all. For some they have never been asked, some are embarrassed to go because of their excess sin. But it requires commitment and dedication on our part. On the Church as a whole. Meaning the entire community. There is a structure, and the structure works. There are some who cause mechanical blowouts in the structure, but you’re going to find that everywhere, like finding a bad trainer at the gym. The Gym is still a gym, but sometimes you get bad trainers.

    But the training is generally the same (speaking specifically for the Catholic Church at least – forgive me, but the Protestant idealism of once saved always saved seems to be like a looking glass you walk in front of, and instead of showing you your true self – the area’s of sin in our lives -, it only shows you a false identity of what you want to look like. Remember – working out spiritually takes an entire lifetime, and your not going to get that body unless you’ve done the work, gone to the gym, taking your nutrition seriously, and until the Good lord says “Well done my good and faithful servant” only then do you make it home. But Jesus always gives us that Hope and the means to get there. We just have to choose to do it.

    So basically we are reaching and inviting. Some of us do it in different ways, and you may need to find a trainer fit for you. But that trainer should challenge you, should work you to the point were you do feel sore, otherwise your not going to grow. There is a ton of return in all this, but sometimes we don’t want to go through the suffering and sacrifice it takes to get there.

    I leave with G.K. Chesterton, my favorite sinner seeking sainthood’s quote “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried” – G. K. Chesterton

    Hoped this helped. It’s not perfect, but fount it was my best way to articulate it.

  • Heygar Horrible

    This is an excellent article. Religion in general has evolved from its inception. My hope is for the religious to accept science as a quest for understanding and enlightenment just like most religions without the underlying control club / curiosity curbing aspects. We are all blessed with curiosity and that is at the core of every discovery we have ever made.

  • chantelle

    How about just going along side God? People don’t need a building to do what’s right or stand up for what’s right. These people that are saying the “church” will lose people if they don’t do this, or they don’t do that. How about the world quit blaming and pointing fingers, and quit waiting for who They think should be standing up for all the right things, and just Stand up for God! Choose His battles,speak His word, be His church for those in need.

  • Esteban

    My take on this article…..who cares…go!!!! Scripture talks about in the last day people will not endure sound doctrine and that will be a great falling away!! This generation has a form of righteousness but denying the power. So, I could care less….get out. Nothing but an apostate anyway!

    • robert

      Your response is confusing. Go!!! you mean to church or away from it?? Who is the apostate? The ones in church or the ones falling away from it?? Amazing how radically differently people see things these days.

  • John Lawless

    Okay since this article put forth an opinion, here is one. One lady stated, “My needs were not being met.” The definition for that position is, anthropocentric. It is important we as 21st century Christians remember (since we have evidently forgot) it is not, have never been and never will be about our needs being met. I propose a different position, theocentric. It is about bringing glory to the Creator, Sustainer, and Savior of the Universe (God). God is the central reason we exist. You want to see a change in your life, your situation, and your future ask this question, “How can I bring glory to God who cared enough to send his only Son as my savior?” I spent many years complaining about my needs and what I needed. An epiphany happened one day when I took my eyes off my needs and focused on what I could do to bring glory to God.

  • Ron

    Sell the building and fire the preacher if you want to find out if you are really even the church.

  • Nick

    How is a “church plant” supposed to be apart from the Church? Biblically, we are unified under Christ as one. A church plant being considered aside from the church seems hypocritical to me.

  • Bác Doug Greene

    A well written account done in love. Let the relationship you have with Jesus be so transparent that other’s will see how much you are in love with Jesus and He with you. That is what will attract them to where you worship when invited.

  • Carole

    You are spot on. However, as someone else mentioned, you left out the angle of the mature single divorced woman who feels like an outcast. She wants to get involved but is afraid to walk in the church doors alone. In my opinion, it is agony to attend church as a once married woman. I don’t feel like I fit in…anywhere. And please don’t talk to me about singles groups. Been there done that. We need some kind of new community church where all feel welcome…and not judged.

  • Peter Chan

    Pastor Pavlovitz, you simply nailed it.

  • Courtney

    1. The church (defined in the Bible as the body of Christ – all those who follow him everywhere- that means those not attending organized religion as well) IS where the pointed finger or public spanking needs to be placed. You see, the Church is responsible for what we allow in organized religion. We are responsible for allowing extra-Biblical notions or rules slip past us. We are responsible for not taking continual spiritual inventory and dropping things that are superfluous, bad for the giving budget, or are flat out untrue. Not organized religion. For whiteout the Church, there is no organized “God fearing” religion.

    2. Do places of worship cater too much to the believer and not the unchurched? I have personally been in a church environment in Knoxville where the childcare NEVER learned my kids names. They never greeted me by name. Why? Because they were SO focused on their ministry for drug abuse, divorce, homelessness, poverty, and hunger. Yes they had a phenomenal worship team (Let everything that has breath praise the Lord – Psalm 150:6) Worship is done with talents (instruments) and praise (voices). There are those who would not come to a service without the worship. Worship draws us close to God. It focuses our hearts. Does it need to go on for 30 minutes? At our current church, we worship as long as it takes. If I want God to draw near to me I must draw near to him and I will praise him gladly anytime anyone is willing to sing of his praises with me.

    3. The message. Theology is something I could take or leave until it helps me understand why things Jesus said matter. When I know that the old testament is a story of a people and a prophecy of a man and the New is the story of a man and the fulfillment of the prophecy, I can start to see why things that used to bore me to tears are important. Such as “the son of the son of”. Are there uninspired ministers trying to just keep the faith as they struggle with spiritual writers block? Are there ministers who flat out teach the wrong thing? Are there ministers who work months and months ahead of time to prepare a series or sermon that they pray over time and again hoping that it will make a difference on not just Tuesday but every day of the week? Absolutely.
    When the church feels a minister is missing the mark, they can absolutely share that with him. He needs to know. What they shouldn’t do is abandon him. (Unless he is a false prophet and then let God deal with that lest we not be judged as harshly as we might want to judge the minister.)

    4. Making excuses for why people leave organized religion is a crutch. At the reckoning, we will all be required to make an account for our lives. If we don’t worship or serve the Lord because we couldn’t find a good church, we won’t be able to blame the buildings we attempted to attend.
    If I want change in my worship facility I can BE that change. I can invite other members into my home for a meal and make a real plan to be the hands and feet of Christ where I see a need.

    5. Is it okay for those unsure of what the Bible actually teaches and what Jesus is really calling us to do to be welcome in a worship facility (fancy or otherwise)? Absolutely! Should that person keep attending once they KNOW what the Bible dictates about certain areas of life should they decide those things do not apply to them? No. We cannot halfway follow him. If people want a life changed and they want the Love and Peace and Joy they MUST take the conviction and the death and die to themselves and their selfish desires. They must be willing to be inconvenienced and broken and truly listen when the Bible says something is unwise or flat out wrong. They must be willing to look outside of what they want or how they planned for their lives to go in order to take up their cross daily and follow him (Matthew 16:24-26) They must be IN the Word in order to know when their ministry team isn’t listening to the voice of God or following his good plans and they must be willing to be the change they wish to see.

    My life is far from easy every minute. The stretching and bending to his will over my own is so rough sometimes. The selfish nature in me to do what I enjoy over what he says is a waste of my time or a dangerous path is very strong. The thing that keeps me strong is knowing that he knows (Jesus) exactly how I feel. His own people killed him. Now those same people beg him for life. He’s been hungry, homeless, beaten, poor, tired, humiliated, and without a church that would hear him. He’s been tossed out for being perfectly perfect. Unwelcome for repeating the exact words his Father had already given the people he was coming to save.

    When we don’t like our options for a church facility/ministry we can start a new one (there is no rule that says you can’t read scripture at your house every Sabath (Sunday) with friends and fellowship and get to the real truth behind what we are called to do) or go to the leaders and express what we are feeling.

    6. Claiming that sex, drugs, and the culture isn’t to blame for their own lawlessness and Godlessness is just absurd. We are all adults. Who is responsible for me or my actions? ME! Is the Bible unclear about wisdom and making good choices and self control? Are the commandments unclear? Does the Bible not warn that lawlessness and Godlessness will be rampant? It’s not the responsibility of organized religion. It’s the CHURCH who is responsible and that means every single person alive who claims that Jesus Christ is their Lord (master) and Savior. Wrong is wrong is wrong. Nobody in a courtroom or otherwise is going to let someone say their life fell apart because the building where they attended organized religion wasn’t up to par or perfectly exemplifying the Love of Christ.

    A big fancy article placing blame won’t get anybody to Heaven and it won’t be a good excuse to give to the one who wore all of our sin on himself on a cross while his Father was unable to even look at him.

    Is organized religion sometimes stale, lacking, sad? Sure! Absolutely even. At the end of this life, I must face Jesus. I must tell him why I didn’t feed that homeless person, why I wouldn’t fellowship with people in a church because I thought they thought something bad of me, why I didn’t try to promote change. We are just as responsible for what we didn’t do as what we did do.

    If I don’t go to a church because of their worship style or their words (tell a pastor if you can’t understand him! Tell him! He needs to know!), if I don’t go because I don’t think THEY give enough to the community, if I don’t go because I haven’t decided how I feel about God’s way of doing things and I’m afraid they won’t want me there, if I don’t go because because because, am I really any better than the very thing I’m criticizing? Or, perhaps it’s a good excuse to not have to get uncomfortable?

    When people write things like this with no real “help” plan, are they stirring the pot or making peace?

    Lastly, on Chick Fil A – The Christian community wasn’t being bigots. They were defending discrimination agains what they hold to be true from their scripture.
    The “Church” didn’t get Phil Robertson a show. A&E hired them. (By the Grace of God in my opinion, but nonetheless..)

    Race baiters like the “Reverend” Jesse Jackson aren’t the representative for the “Church”.

    My prayer for anyone who reads that articles is that they ask the Lord to find them a community to worship with where their offering of themselves can multiply. I pray a revival for all who want to fellowship but don’t feel welcome or comfortable. I pray that all who have excuses why they aren’t worshiping will be comfortable getting uncomfortable and go out and be the hands and feet of Christ instead of waiting for an organized facility to come and woo them into feeling at home there. This is NOT our home. Jesus is wooing us. He is our home. Here we are to get with the others like us and go be the example of Jesus to those not like us. That includes a lost or stale or flashy or whatever kind of organized worship facility.

    (sorry if I have typos. Brad says everything I write has them) xoxo

  • Lady leto

    fantastic, i totally and completely agree. As a christian struggling with so many issues, the church just does not seem to get it.

  • It’s a good article. Of course, one of the first steps in reaching the lost is acknowledging that most of us Christians seek to follow a sin free life, but do still occasionally stumble. Unfortunately, those stumbling blocks that we fail to avoid are fodder for those who want to keep on sinning INTENTIONALLY and they use the stumbles as a shield for their purposeful defiance of the Lord. Nevertheless, we still need to realize that our stumbling blocks are stumbling blocks for those who may be watching our walk rather than our talk.

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  • sv

    As a former music minister and church goer, I will agree that love is seriously lacking in the church. I have a good friend who says “Church is the only hospital who routinely kills its wounded. ” We have developed into a people who are so competitive. Denomination against denomination, church against church, theology against theology, program against program, Minister against Minister, and congregant against congregant. We have become a people who don’t reflect the one we’re named after in the effort to win some invisible prize. We spread our Christian feathers and enter into useless and often hateful debate. We kill each other to claw our way to the top of some invisible and highly coveted spiritual recognition. Our best tool is to try to discredit the competition. We tell the stories of Jesus and we sing songs and we drag Jesus name through the mud with our ignorance of what his love really looks like. We are obsessed with teaching people how to avoid sexual sin, but little is said about gossip and backbiting. Gossip is a type of murder that is not only allowed, but we create avenues like prayer chains to facilitate and make gossip spiritual. And we stand leaders up and make them confess if they have fallen into sexual sin, but we call gossips intercessors and give them honor and a platform to sin and destroy people. In church, we can’t share our struggles, and we don’t know our temptations are normal, because the blood thirsty gossips are seeking who they may devour. Instead of being able to share our burdens, we are ashamed and fear that we will get knocked off the spiritual ladder and marked for life. And so we find non-church people who don’t look down their nose at our inability to control our “thought life”. We spend a few years out of church and discover that we can put down that false front we put up to protect ourselves from the vultures, and we found a more authentic faith that isn’t motivated by fear or ambition. And when we visit churches or talk with church people, we get sick at our stomachs that nothing has changed. We feel pity. And we don’t want to get caught up again.

  • Kevin

    So on point! Pastors in lofty positions that in their minds are the end all to others opinions, thought or insight are a huge turn off. It’s sad that a person that has been given an incredible position to help others become better people only want them to become what they think is right.

  • Linda Hudson Morris

    Funny, how it is the churches in our community that are helping to feed and clothe the poor students in our neighborhoods. Whose members show up to tutor and mentor students. We have a corporation that encourages it’s workers to also help in Lead to Read programs. But it is the church goers that are helping pay bills to get heat, electricity and water back on, giving food every week, working with Harvesters to give a weekend worth of snacks to kids. Collecting and donating school supplies, coats, gloves and scarves. You only see what you want to see. Those of us in the trenches of the urban neighborhoods see the good being done by caring Christian churches. Come on in….they need all the help they can get

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  • Randy

    A man left a comment that basically said the people that feel this way were not ever regenerated, or saved. To this point of view I say that God is the author of love and it is love that regenerates. It regenerates our mentality and our spirit to love in return and there is strong evidence that love even regenerates us physically. If we expect the “church” as an organization to love then it is we that are disallusioned. Love is given by people and it is given by people out where people are. Organizations can help people but they cannot love. Love has to come from people.

    Others are offended that an organizations doctrines are not fiting to their own beliefs. If we are offended by what others say and it draws us further from God then it is within ourselves that we should look. I can disagree with what someone has said without hating them or changing my relationship with God. In fact, it strengthens my relationship with God as I look to him for answers and sometimes it takes a long time to come to grip with issues but God is faithful and patient to teach.

    And to those that speak of the pride and privilage of church memebers remember that the greatest amoung us and those that serve others, Jesus’ words. As James said, true religion pure and faultless before the Father is looking after the orphans and widows and keeping ourselves from being polluted by the world. These are acts of individuals and not an organization.

    In WWIIII the prudential rule was, “when in doubt, win the war” In Gods word the prudential rule is, ” when in doubt, love.”

  • NeoracerX

    Pointing fingers and making excuses ,and complaining are not talking points.

  • GrimmEngineer

    And this is exactly why the people of the church should BE the church. No designated pastor/priest to take our money to support themselves (which is against the teachings of Christ by the way) and that’s the only one who teaches and reads the bible to use. NO. WE are the church. The Priest/Pastor should serve his position as a worthy member of the congregation. In the LDS church we call them Bishops. They are unpaid members of the congregation who are called to the duty for anywhere from one to several years as the needs of the congregation are met. There are many other callings that are filled by other members of the congregation, counselers, teachers, choristers, you name it. All voluntarily and without pay. We support each other and teach and learn from each other and follow the teachings of Christ as laid out upon the holy scriptures. The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is not a group of individuals who set themselves on pedestals above us and fill their pockets in servitude to themselves. Jesus would have words with these people much as he threw the merchants out of the temple for turning it into a market of mockery.

  • Stewart Johnson

    Dear John (and everyone else),

    Please stop scapegoating atheists for the supposed lack of
    morality in our modern age. Most of the finest people I have ever known have
    been atheists. Why? Because we choose
    to be good, rather than being forced to be good by something that supposedly
    told you to be good – or else. Your forced charity does not hold a candle to
    our choosing to be charitable.

    Of course I realize that in your otherwise extremely well-written
    piece here, you’re not blaming us specifically, but you did include us in your
    list of usual suspects. You are thus propagating discrimination against the
    single most persecuted minority in human history: those who do not believe in
    the supernatural.

    But I do forgive you.

  • Scott

    Probably should check the actual stats before a post like this. More people are attending church on a regular basis in America than ever before. The church is the bride of Christ. I’m not too keen on someone slamming my bride. I doubt that Jesus is either.

  • Elizabeth Neely

    we need to encounter Jesus, not church, this is why I love silent Quaker worship, we encounter Jesus, He is the word made flesh. He speaks to us in the silence and through the bible. Shut up and listen, listen for the spirit. God is here, Jesus is right here with us at every moment and in everyplace we are.

  • josh

    Or you write articles and blogs about this topic. This is another one to add to your list.

  • Jeffrey Vickers

    In the book of “Acts” it is written, ” And the Lord added to the church daily those who were to be saved.” My friend, God is the one who adds to a church. We are to be faithful to Him in our lives and our calling. All the “doing ” in the world will never cause God to do that which HE isn’t directing.

  • Scott Ziegler

    Not sure what benefit there is of slamming the bride of Christ. The stats are also not accurate. While weekly attendance is down, the raw numbers of people attending evangelical churches in America is up. Frequency of attendance of all churches is down (largely due to sociological reasons and including non-evangelical groups), but the total numbers of people attending Gospel-proclaiming churches is up. Churches are made up of people, so there will be flaws. But I don’t appreciate people slamming my bride, I doubt Jesus does either. A lot of what is said in this article is pure opinion. Some of the most effective churches that are reaching their communities and seeing lives transformed and healthy growth, are doing many of the things Pavlovitz is slamming them for. That’s exactly what Jesus (and Paul for that matter) told us not to do. We are not to judge others for things that are not in Scripture. This post was painting the whole church with a broad brush, full of judgmentalism and negativity, exactly the kinds of things that if found in a church or a pastor, would drive people away.

  • Scott Ziegler

    Seriously? I wrote a comment twice with reasonable criticism of this article, and you deleted it twice. You will post an article that slams the Body of Christ but when someone adds a comment with sincere criticism of that article, defending of the Body of Christ, you censor the comment? Do you only allow comments that are supportive of your articles? That’s not operating an honest blog. That’s not real dialog.

  • Sharon Sullivan

    Well, I don’t think we should burn down the brick and mortar buildings, Joe… c’mon. We still need a place to “call home.” Someplace for the lost to “go” when they take the initiative – and you’re home, on-line. (sorry!)

    We need only to look at what worked before to keep the Church, not just growing, but thriving:

    “Then the Church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the HOLY SPIRIT. It grew in numbers, living in the FEAR of the LORD” (Acts 9:31).

    (pssst… the Holy Spirit is the missing ingredient)

    I confess, I did find this advice on-line: (Youtube: Derek Prince – The Lords Treasure – The Fear of the Lord)

  • Chris

    I’ve been a Christian for over 14 years and recently left ‘church’. I still love Jesus…
    Call me crazy but, it could be possible that the current trend may be the hand of God working on the Church. I personally do not believe that the current Church could fix any of these problems that John writes about. Do you see Christians changing their vocabulary? No way, they are going to hold on to their vocabulary at all costs. Do you see them feeding the homeless instead of going to war over a stupid reality show? While I do believe some well meaning pastors will get on here an say these problems have been fixed in their church, I doubt it. We’ve exchanged a simplistic gospel for lights, show and the american corporate model. Until that changes the Church in america will continue to see the exodus.

  • I mean, those are all very interesting points, but – in general – the mega-churches that fit the picture you describe are actually doing JUST FINE. In fact, most are growing. The churches that are steadily dying are smaller (300 or less), denominational churches. So, maybe that’s why YOU left the church, but as a diagnosis of the problem, the math just doesn’t work. The ONLY churches thriving currently look exactly as you described.

    • robert

      good point, Shannon! The article isn’t well thought out at all. It’s just one guys whiny point of view. Some of the responses here are wiser and better written that the article. Sigh

  • SOTBP Conference

    This is a correct pick lousy battles, unactive in legislative matters, act ‘blessed & highly favored’ on executive & judicial matters, yep too much literature speaking that barely get too the exact point, and they have more unadressed scandal in theirs than putting mine on the scale. What more can be a said


    The church has lost it’s way! They allow people dressed like thugs do the worship music, sounds like rap and have “night club” lights and most of the time, they are jumping around like monkeys! What ever happened to order in the church?

  • Vicki Hanes

    All I can say is, “Thank You.” I have been involved in serving the local church for over 20 years and it has come to lack meaning. I know I am part of the problem, but I thought the church was supposed to help me. All I got was the information that I need to be more mature and serving more was the way to maturity. I felt more lonely in church than I did without. It hurt to leave but it hurt more to stay. I’m now trying to redefine church by trying to be community. Praying that this is what God wants me to do.

    • robert

      You sound really sincere and I empathize with your words. I am really sorry that the church ‘let you down.’ At the moment, I’m going to a church that I’ve gone to for almost a year and I really haven’t been pressured to ‘serve’, but I’ve done it a little ’cause I wanted to. Maybe you just got burned out? idk but I’ll say a prayer for you before bed tonight. Thanks for being honest and I with you the best. blessings

      • Vicki Hanes

        Thanks Robert. Yes, the possibility is burnout, but that is partly due to the system that requires it to “belong.” There seems to be a lack of soul care either provided by the church or encouraged by the church. When Paul wanted to visit a church it was for “mutual encouragement.” I dont seem to be finding that in a “name-over-the-door church.” Maybe I just don’t choose wisely. Almost all the membership agreements should have given me pause. They ask that I believe and do certain things to maintain the unity but the only thing the organization promises is to make sure I’m confronted in love when I get it wrong. I’m not sure those kind of promises said at a wedding between a groom and a bride would make people very confident in their relationship moving forward. I’m not sure why that is acceptable in a church. It is very possible that I have the wrong attitude, but it is also possible that God wants better for me, for all of us.

      • Vicki Hanes

        Thanks Robert. Yes, the possibility is burnout, but that is partly due to the system that requires it to “belong.” There seems to be a lack of soul care either provided by the church or encouraged by the church. When Paul wanted to visit a church it was for “mutual encouragement.” I dont seem to be finding that in a “name-over-the-door church.” Maybe I just don’t choose wisely. Almost all the membership agreements should have given me pause. They ask that I believe and do certain things to maintain the unity but the only thing the organization promises is to make sure I’m confronted in love when I get it wrong. I’m not sure those kind of promises said at a wedding between a groom and a bride would make people very confident in their relationship moving forward. I’m not sure why that is acceptable in a church. It is very possible that I have the wrong attitude, but it is also possible that God wants better for me, for all of us.

  • Stella

    Wow powerful article and much of the reason I did not go to church today. And yet, my heart knows that there are churches that fulfill much of this. I found one that loved me back to life. They were not perfect but they loved my imperfections along with everyone elses. Good people who loved God. I miss them. had to move back home last summer. Boy do I miss them. They really gave me HOPE!

    And that tithing thing… I know this may sound strange… but years ago I had a divine encounter with God who walked me through understanding this principle. In the process he took me from welfare, eviction and poverty—-To owning my own business, multiple real estate ventures, and global travel. if you want to hear the story here is a link to the testimony…

  • Ronald Mcwhorter

    You get what you sow ,you get out of church,what you put into it.sow love,you reap love .Sow discord,you reap the same.Church of the Highlands ,where i attend is a life giving church,but even there,personal responsibility is required.

  • Linda Sealey

    All valid points, but number four hits home for me. We are too busy trying to make government do the church’s job to remember to feed the hungry and clothe the poor. I don’t believe in creating entitled people, but there are so many ways to help those who legitimately are going through bad times and trying to help their families. Compassion and mercy are what Jesus preached, not hatred, name-calling, and arrogance.

  • Josh

    It’s clear that this guy has a better knowledge of several churches “issues” and he’s accurate on several points. However, my problem is that we, those complaining from the inside of the religious community, are airing our dirty laundry in the presence of people who don’t realize that their many different kinds da of church and completely opposite points of view. Progressive and dare I say it liberal Christianity is not being heard. Cooperative more universal version of the old old story are the solution to these problem, not religious physical and societal iconoclasm. Unfortunately, articles like this are being reposted by Atheists who propose just that solution, a world without faith.

  • Deb

    I’m sorry, I found this article to have a bitter, biting tone to it. Having been in church ministry many years, I’m aware churches have their faults. They are full of humans. Most churches are doing the best they can. Their leaders are praying, and yes, daring to innovate. I think it is wrong to take a large brush with your criticisms and aim them at all churches. And, by the way, it could be the things you’ve listed are things you don’t like, not necessarily what’s wrong with churches. You have now used your public platform to open the floor to that which is probably most harmful to churches: fault finding based on personal preference. Please remember that if there if “stuff that needs to be said” it needs to be said in love, not in this critical, bashing, sarcastic manner.

    • Jena Perry

      as your response’s connotation implies that you read it with the same tone. Furthermore, proves his point when you choose to respond by deflection and picking of his “flawed” perspective instead of actively listening with empathy. Your fear of churches being generalized because you did when you read this , undermines the message in this essay and is generalizing itself, cause it implies everyone’s reading comprehension is performed in the same fashion like yourself.

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  • Jena Perry

    Could’ve sworn Jesus wasn’t big on churches anyway. Love and develop faith however you and your relationship with God deems fit. In the end, it’s your responsibility for your actions, not the churches. Think people have become to comfortable with seeking outside of themselves, instead of turning within and meditation. It’s okay to seek advice, but ultimately, it’s still your decision and only God can judge.

  • TJ

    Wow the commenters really digressed here. I’ll just say amen to your article 110%. So often I feel guilty about my feelings towards church. This article makes me feel at least legitimized that its not just me.

  • StopJudgingOthers

    Tired of seeing so many pastors, preachers putting down and being critical of other churches and pastors and preachers for the way they choose to bring in the people to hear Gods word. Everyone is different and each may choose a different type of church or pastors way of delivering Gods word. Judging others for any reason is NOT ok if you read GODS word.

    • Nathan M.

      Judging is one thing and it is certainly prohibited scripturally. But I don’t know if we need to classify this article as judgement. It is perhaps a corrective. And if we read anything written by Paul, we should know that the church correcting itself, admonishing, encouraging and offering counsel is all normal and healthy for the Body of Christ. Not sure I’d see Pavlovitz as a prophet, but the job of a prophet is to speak the truth. Even if it hurts.

  • ura montal

    She walks into the room and sits next to you at the table. She’s
    the guest of honor tonight at the rehearsal dinner. She’s the bride, and she’s
    pretty, but not perfect. So you tell the whole table about it: her warts, her
    gas, her morning breath, her character flaws, her idiosyncrasies, and the most
    embarrassing moments of her life. You’re the brother of the bride, and tonight
    you’re going to have your fun… until the Groom takes a seat. Then what?

    Let’s extend the metaphor. Your name is John Pavlovitzl, the Bride is your sister
    the Church, and you’ve just spilled most of her weaknesses to all who are
    within earshot. And one day the Groom will sit down.

    I’m sure He’ll see that you meant to be complimentary… most of the time. I’m
    sure that He’ll see you were trying to help. But you hurt her feelings. You
    compared her to some fashion magazine cover that you think she should be, some
    composite-photo-air-brush-job that she can’t possibly be, that you think is
    beautiful–and you made her feel nasty in the process.

    You’ve besmirched her reputation in public, and you think you’re going to win
    her affection? You want her to trust you? You want to bear the ring that she
    will use tomorrow on her wedding day?

    Let’s not trade the hope we have for a Kingdom that is coming for petty
    bickering over kingdoms that won’t last. Let’s not be tools of anyone but our

  • Amy Williams

    “5. Your love doesn’t look like love.” Love that point and the way you described that. Spot on.

  • Guest

    WOW! Just WOW!
    Speechless…in the best kind of way.
    I think.

    Thank you…

  • Mel

    ….its not about you or us……its all about Jesus! Live like his sacrifice on the cross means something to you. Stop whining about how your precious need arent met….Every need we have can only be fulfilled by him. What about Gods call on your life? When will you be the hands and feet? Pull your weight? If your coming to church cause you need something don’t look to me I’ll just let you down. Keep your eyes on Jesus he will fulfill your needs.

  • ddski

    If Christ dying on the cross for your sins and a home in Heaven isn’t enough to make you stay (as He commanded) than nothing will. If you want to do more… do more.

  • Sam McCombs

    I totally agree with 1-3. However, I don’t really agree with #4. I keep seeing the kind of thinking that goes along the lines of “Because there are bigger bad things, we should ignore the smaller things.”Of course the church should tackle poverty, and freeing people from slavery… and they do. The reason you don’t hear as much about those things is because they are non-controversial. But I also think the church really should support people in the spotlight who are trying to live according to God’s Word, and get attacked for it. It’s not only an attack on Christianity, it’s also disturbingly anti-freedom to see people who don’t think like the world does being threatened like they were. All that it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

  • Becky

    I do see that the church has become based on “denominational rules” when none of these things will be ask of us at judgement. What will be ask is what have you done for me (not what did the church do for you). Many people complain about what the church did not do for them but in turn …what did you do for the church? That’s where happiness is found to me and that is serving not being served. How much time do we spend feeding ourselves on His word during the week rather than expecting the preacher to solve all problems in a one hour service on Sunday morning. Sometimes…we have to put in effort to become like Christ by studying and serving rather than thinking all responsibility falls on the church. A relationship is based on 100% effort on all involved and our relationship with Christ/church is no different.

  • Brett Michael Martin

    This is why I left, especially #5

  • Kay

    Sorry, but the way this article is written, makes it sound like our churches would grow like mad if we stayed silent on social issues in the world, kept out of the battle for our culture, and allowed gay marriage in our churches. Yes Sirree, that’s the way to grow! Let the world dictate our teachings, so that we can look more tolerant and loving to their sins.
    This pastor is weak and caving to society’s wicked pressure and frankly, I’m sick of weak pastors. I want the black robe regiment of the Revolutionary War times, who were not afraid to proclaim the word of God, and live their faith out in every aspect of their life, including their politics.
    We already have PLENTY of churches who want to stick their heads in the sand and be politically correct. What this world needs is more boldness to stand up for truth, more Bonhoeffers, and more Christ’s strength and courage to say what is not politically correct. Not more woos’ in our ministry leadership and congregations. Geesh. Get over yourself and care about the world enough to speak up and tell them the truth…. watering it down will get you people, but ones who won’t know or fear the one true living God of the Bible.

  • John Isom

    Anyone that things they have the answer is dreaming…..some of your suggestions are very good but saying that applies to all worshipers is naivete…

  • Dominic Zaio

    This was interesting to read because these were all things Jehovah’s Witnesses strive to do all over the world in contrast to what the churches of this world do

  • J Jonas

    Amen to all of this….thank you for your heartfelt honesty….I’m listening and hoping others inside the four-walls do too! I believe there is a place where everyone can be themselves; feeling understood and supported, encouraged. Experiencing kindness and unselfish love from humans who don’t have it all figured out but are willing to let God speak for Himself and let us get out of the way. Here’s to a new year of discovery outside the church!

  • Dominic Zaio

    These are all things Jehovah’s witnesses have been doing for years In contrast to the churches of the world today

    • Nathan M.